What's happening in Reading ?

[markinkent]

I cannot condone or defend terrorism, but can someone tell me the difference between the Hamas terrorist, and the hero's of the French resistance.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. All comes down to your point of view

The West made it very clear that Russia annexing Crimea was a shocking invasion but arent the vast majority of people in crimea russian ?

 

[jogills]

Integration is key.

Agreed but it's important we don't see integration as being an immediate change of identity to take on all the perceived values and culture of an imagined, traditional Britain. We can see there are enough differences between us board members to not be able to define an official British/English identity.

We are always in flux as a society as witnessed by the appeals to see our forebears from the 18th century as having different values from our own. My parents' generation already seems an age away. We are becoming a wider Britain melding different cultures to our own modern world and a new country is in the making, which will belong to all of us.

 

[LancsGordoRoad]

I'm pretty certain the victims will turn out to be homosexuals (they frequented the one gay pub in Reading).

The question is then whether they were targeted because of that, or did they "just happen to be" gay men in a park who were killed by a man with a knife who "just happened to be" a Muslim.

Ideological causes can still be dealt with under terrorist legislation. I dare say that a pretty detailed "picture" of the attacker has already been put together, following searches of his home etc., previous incidents and, of course, assessment of dialogue from the scene - it seems there may have been quite a few witnesses; some (including those injured) will have heard what the detained man was saying before/at the time of the attacks.

 

[valenciagill]

He was on the radar of MI5 , which gives us a clue.

 

[ThreeSixes]

Let us assume you are right for argument's sake that they were all gay men. It is just as possible that the killer is/was confused about his own sexual identity and that was the driving force behind his violent outburst. That after all is what turned out to be the case in the Orlando nightclub shooting.

Some of us would see all the above as islamist inspired and some of us would see it as reflecting attitudes towards gay people and the subjuective experience of coming to terms with being gay. Very little is simple but simple fuels division.

As others have said subsequently, it is being treated as a terrorist attack so it would appear unlikely that it was a man struggling with his sexuality. The question is whether the victims were targeted or not for any reason?

 

[ThreeSixes]

We are always in flux as a society as witnessed by the appeals to see our forebears from the 18th century as having different values from our own. My parents' generation already seems an age away. We are becoming a wider Britain melding different cultures to our own modern world and a new country is in the making, which will belong to all of us.

That's not my observation. I know I am a broken record, but I work in Newham, the most culturally diverse area in the country. Generally, you will see groups of eastern Europeans together, groups of Africans, groups of Chinese, groups of Afro-Caribbeans, groups of white British etc. That's just how it is, Polish people have Polish friends that they speak Polish to.

I would say the country is becoming less integrated not more so. The more people from another country that come to the UK, the larger their community, the less they need to mix.

On the side of London buses and on tubes, you will see loads of adverts for shaadi.com and muzmatch.com. Shaadi is a dating site for Indians, Muzmatch is for Muslims.

 

[jogills]

As others have said subsequently, it is being treated as a terrorist attack so it would appear unlikely that it was a man struggling with his sexuality. The question is whether the victims were targeted or not for any reason?

That does not follow, whichever way you look at it. Take a look at the Orlando nightclub massacre, a terrorist incident for sure but what exactly motivated it. An incident can be terror related but it can also be primarily caused by: mental health issues, conflicted sexuality, racism, the manipulation of a vulnerable individual, or just plain psychopathy.

I too am interested in whether the victims were targeted and, if so, for what reason.

 

[LancsGordoRoad]

Agreed but it's important we don't see integration as being an immediate change of identity to take on all the perceived values and culture of an imagined, traditional Britain. We can see there are enough differences between us board members to not be able to define an official British/English identity.

We are always in flux as a society as witnessed by the appeals to see our forebears from the 18th century as having different values from our own. My parents' generation already seems an age away. We are becoming a wider Britain melding different cultures to our own modern world and a new country is in the making, which will belong to all of us.

Yes, integration has to be a steady and prolonged process for it to be effective. As it stands, we are making headway and it`s great that our society has so many varying characteristics, whether that be upholding Cornish shanty singing or preserving Punjabi Kushtian wrestling. When the young of today, who will be the decision makers of tomorrow, decide what being British is all about let`s hope that everyone, no matter what their cultural preference, buys into it. At least until such time as Nation status disappears altogether from the world`s constitution...

 

[jogills]

That's not my observation. I know I am a broken record, but I work in Newham, the most culturally diverse area in the country. Generally, you will see groups of eastern Europeans together, groups of Africans, groups of Chinese, groups of Afro-Caribbeans, groups of white British etc. That's just how it is, Polish people have Polish friends that they speak Polish to.

I would say the country is becoming less integrated not more so. The more people from another country that come to the UK, the larger their community, the less they need to mix.

On the side of London buses and on tubes, you will see loads of adverts for shaadi.com and muzmatch.com. Shaadi is a dating site for Indians, Muzmatch is for Muslims.

I was not making a happy clappy multi cultural heaven point at all. I was indicating that we are making our way towards a new vision of ourselves. How that turns out is an ongoing story and it is impossible to make blanket statements. My grandson lives in Newham and neither his household nor his friendship group conform to your generalisations.

 

[Whitstabletangerine]

Returning to the Reading incident and other such attacks, because I am not a religious person I tend to overlook the religion of the attackers and focus more on the reason for the act that was carried out in the first place.
I do not sympathise in any way with those that carry out such actions, let me make that clear but if any of you had parents, grandparents or great grandparents have their house destroyed their land confiscated, the village or town bombed then you may hold some sort of hatred towards the people who carried out these actions.
Now the Reading attacker we are told is Libyan but there is a chance he might not be a Muslim at all, he could be a Christian, now if true that would set the cat amongst the birds.
I have often thought that what goes around comes around so it comes as no surprise to me to hear of disgruntled young foreigners seeking revenge on those that decades previously gave their elders such a hard time.
I am old enough to remember the bombing of Egypt when the Suez canal was blocked and our ships particularly tankers from the Gulf had a few extra weeks at sea having to go via the Cape., Britain and France decided to invade and bomb and it didn;t go down too well not just in the Arab states but elsewhere.
Again while in Aden I can recall the Shakeltons bombing villages and Hunters and Venoms strafing the tribesmen who were endeavouring to rid the Southern tip of Arabia from British rule. we finally had enough and we left in 67.
I do not have to mention Muslims, just people with links to distant lands that have a grievance against the British, for either occupation, persecution or torture from past decades.

RIP the Newbury three.

 

[Jerryattrick]

Returning to the Reading incident and other such attacks, because I am not a religious person I tend to overlook the religion of the attackers and focus more on the reason for the act that was carried out in the first place.
I do not sympathise in any way with those that carry out such actions, let me make that clear but if any of you had parents, grandparents or great grandparents have their house destroyed their land confiscated, the village or town bombed then you may hold some sort of hatred towards the people who carried out these actions.
Now the Reading attacker we are told is Libyan but there is a chance he might not be a Muslim at all, he could be a Christian, now if true that would set the cat amongst the birds.
I have often thought that what goes around comes around so it comes as no surprise to me to hear of disgruntled young foreigners seeking revenge on those that decades previously gave their elders such a hard time.
I am old enough to remember the bombing of Egypt when the Suez canal was blocked and our ships particularly tankers from the Gulf had a few extra weeks at sea having to go via the Cape., Britain and France decided to invade and bomb and it didn;t go down too well not just in the Arab states but elsewhere.
Again while in Aden I can recall the Shakeltons bombing villages and Hunters and Venoms strafing the tribesmen who were endeavouring to rid the Southern tip of Arabia from British rule. we finally had enough and we left in 67.
I do not have to mention Muslims, just people with links to distant lands that have a grievance against the British, for either occupation, persecution or torture from past decades.

RIP the Newbury three.

It is being reported that he converted to christianity a few years ago. Once again just speculation.

 

[jokerman]

I think things work best when there is a dominant culture which is confident and secure enough in itself to make space for minority cultures, and those minority cultures have to encourage the competence of their members in the majority culture, and accept that it is the dominant culture. Of course, this is exactly what most minorities do. That's what I would understand by integration. Certainly not a one-size fits-all complete melting pot. That works when there is cultural closeness and a fast growing economy which people want to be part of in the first place eg the 19th century US immigration experience. Dominant cultures do shift a bit like the Theseus ship or old broom/new broom paradox -but they don't shift as much or as quickly as large scale population movements require them to do. In fact a map of the basic world culture groups is one characterized by stability than change even today.

I'm pessimistic about multi-cultural, all-cultures-are-equal approaches. For one thing, they aren't. For all the evils of liberal imperialism and its successors, they hold up well in a comparative dominant cultures competition. Ask yourself in which other cultures would this discussion be taking place. And besides, while I have no interest in exporting liberalism's culture to other places and people, it suits me and mine.

It is not enough to say one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. We have to exercise our judgement on the positions we think people occupy on the terrorist-patriot continuum. The French resistance was different from Hamas, and Israel is different from its neighbors. In their imperfect ways, they are both working towards widening freedom -even if the former sometimes played roulette with its own compatriots taken hostage by the Germans, and even if
the latter thinks that history has given it a huge credit in its moral bank account which allows it to cut corners. I think Hamas and the IRA are closer to protection rackets exploiting the misery and frustration of people.

Nor is it good enough to focus merely on the people who exploit division.s It is true that people do this and it is true that they are a problem. However, this can be a form of deflection, especially when it implies that the divisions would not be there except for bad people stirring them up to distract from other sources of discontent.

The track record of political communities where there is any thing close to a balance of power or numbers -Yugoslavia, Lebanon, maybe even Belgium, is not good -and even where there is a large minority there is difficulty. If I were to be optimistic, I'd look at Canada as a pretty good story. Managing the French fact has become a way of life, rather than a question to be resolved. Attitudes to very large numbers of immigrants from all over the place remain positive. Even so, Canada has wealth and space, and there are signs that it has limits, even if they remain far off for now.

 

[markinkent]

Good points Whitstable. Libya is a great example where the west meddled and had a negative impact. Its easy to Google Libya before and after to see hiw the country was before and how it was after we meddled. Gaddafi wasnt perfect but the country was stable and in control. It must be easy to show photos to their youth and build up a hatred of the west.

Perhaps we will only see an end to this when the west loses its reliance on middle Eastern oil.

I have never doubted that our involvement in the middle East has little to do with democracy but everything to do with access to their oil reserves.

 

[Jerryattrick]

Good points Whitstable. Libya is a great example where the west meddled and had a negative impact. Its easy to Google Libya before and after to see hiw the country was before and how it was after we meddled. Gaddafi wasnt perfect but the country was stable and in control. It must be easy to show photos to their youth and build up a hatred of the west.

Perhaps we will only see an end to this when the west loses its reliance on middle Eastern oil.

I have never doubted that our involvement in the middle East has little to do with democracy but everything to do with access to their oil reserves.

Every sovereignty problem in the middle east comes from historical foreign interference - I think lol - any country there not impacted by it post 1918? I will include Yugoslavia in this.

Surprisingly historically the Islamic empires were tolerant of both jewish and Christian communities. Trouble is that during some periods (as with Europe) it was the opposite. Humans fight over resources and its the same with religious organisations.

 

[valenciagill]

It is being reported that he converted to christianity a few years ago. Once again just speculation.

I've heard that as well.
Lots of effort from the media , distancing this story from Islamic terrorism.
His brother (in London)has reportedly made some very telling comments. His family back in Libya say different.
It also appears that victims had attended the BLM protest hours before.
No suggestion of the attack being homophobic , but we all know what happens to gay men in certain countries.
It's all rather complicated

 

[Jerryattrick]

I've heard that as well.
Lots of effort from the media , distancing this story from Islamic terrorism.
His brother (in London)has reportedly made some very telling comments. His family back in Libya say different.
It also appears that victims had attended the BLM protest hours before.
No suggestion of the attack being homophobic , but we all know what happens to gay men in certain countries.
It's all rather complicated

I guess your gang are still hoping he is a muslim, gay hating, blm supporting , isis supporting, pedo asylum seeker.

If he is an asylum seeker who has been in prison for crimes in this country then he was not deported because the current law states (i believe) deportation is for sentences over 12 months. Yet windrush people and individuals of no danger have been deported easily by this government.
And people still vote them in.

 

[ThreeSixes]

It also appears that victims had attended the BLM protest hours before.

They attended an anti racism demo, and then got killed by an immigrant hours later?

 

[jokerman]

Good points Whitstable. Libya is a great example where the west meddled and had a negative impact. Its easy to Google Libya before and after to see hiw the country was before and how it was after we meddled. Gaddafi wasnt perfect but the country was stable and in control. It must be easy to show photos to their youth and build up a hatred of the west.

Perhaps we will only see an end to this when the west loses its reliance on middle Eastern oil.

I have never doubted that our involvement in the middle East has little to do with democracy but everything to do with access to their oil reserves.

The problem with the "it's all about the oil" is then you have the puzzle of the massive and barely critical commitment to Israel -the ones with no oil. And why bust Saddam and Gadaffi if it's all about the oil? OK, Saddam was getting a bit big for his britches -but surely in a geopolitical sense, not a reliable provider sense. And Gadaffi had seen the light after his meeting with Blair in the tent. Don't underestimate expansionary liberalism as a driver and especially expansionary liberalism attempted on the cheap -a big change between the Thatcher/Reagan/Bush era and the Blair/W/Obama mess. That's a good thing about Trump -when they explain why the US absolutely has to act, he says no we don't, at least so far (he's still a horse's banana, btw, but that's not an immediate disqualifier for the job).

 

[Jerryattrick]

They attended an anti racism demo, and then got killed by an immigrant hours later?

So funny, they obviously had it coming.
So, so ironic - yes, thats parroting the right wing ‘todays catch phrase’ , cannot you guys make up your own thoughts? People are dead but its their fault, lets make some political capital out of this after all its just muslims who hold hatred.

If they had been people who were actually against immigration but also did not agree with any person being killed unlawfully or if you are legal then you should not be discriminated against, would it have been so ironic.

 

[valenciagill]

If they had been people who were actually against immigration but also did not agree with any person being killed unlawfully or if you are legal then you should not be discriminated against, would it have been so ironic.

I think we're better off sticking to what happened , rather than launch into 'whatabout' scenarios.