What's happening in Reading ? | Page 4 | Vital Football

What's happening in Reading ?

Jerryattrick said:
There is no evidence that I can see that a false history is being taught but its a few years since my kids were studying it. Maybe bits missing?
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Semantics. Selectively excluding parts of our history from the textbooks is creating a false history.

My point is that it seems like a very Right Wing thing to excludes such things from our textbooks.

Edit: on reflection, maybe it isn’t ‘Right Wing’ at all. Are we any different to Communist North Korea on how we portray our history? Maybe it’s just ‘extremist’ to erase these things from the textbooks.
 
Buddha said:
val, your post above (#42) is quite possibly the most reasonable post I've ever seen you make with regard to this issue. You make a very fair comment and I agree with you. /QUOTE]


Seconded. I was going to post the same.

This board is getting very civil these days :-)
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markinkent said:
Seconded. I was going to post the same.

This board is getting very civil these days :-)
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Yes, perhaps, Mark. Though let's not get too carried away. Has val really moderated his views, or just his language?

In the past, val, has most definitely characterised ALL Islam as being the problem. Above he appears to accept that this is not the case and that actually most Muslims would agree with you, me (and now him?) that it is just a dangerous minority who believe that Allah wants them to kill indiscriminately. If val really has shifted his opinion then he needs to be encouraged and applauded.

The next step is for him to investigate why these Islamofascists are able to gain support and radicalise young Muslims. That doesn't mean excusing their actions or thinking that they're justified in their hate and their murderous actions, it simply means understanding that it is a very complex issue and that Western foreign policy over the last fifty years or so has played a huge part in alienating the Muslim world and engendering a deep-felt resentment. It is this resentment that the Islamofascists tap into and exploit; it is how they are able to recruit and radicalise.

It is very much the same as the way the right-wing in this country (and other Western nations) operate. They identify the (justifuiable) anger and resentment and then they scapegoat an entire race/religion as being responsible (in the 1930s it was economic hardship and the Jews were blamed as being the cause; today it is terrorism and Muslims are blamed as being the cause).

I'd be really interested to hear his response to the Curtis film. If val watches that with an open mind and an open heart I defy him to be able to conclude that the whole issue is anything other than a very complicated mess which cannot just be simplified into 'good' vs 'bad'. Both Western foreign policy and Wahhabism have played their parts in creating a climate of fear on both sides.
 
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Has the pandemic lock down aided the radicalization of young single Muslims, the lock down has had effects on a lot of peoples mental health, if you're young, Muslim, and stuck on social media for months?
 
Curtis blames the rise in Islamic terrorism on the shoulders of the US and Saudi Arabia, so for many who hate the US and the Saudis that will sit just fine, the answer however is closer to home and goes back much further than the Bitter Lake event.
After the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of ww1 Britain and France carved up the Middle East, we also had an earlier introduction to Afghanistan and helped to push millions of Muslims to other areas when we came to creating the new India, Pakistan West and Pakistan East (Bangladesh).
The left wing in society will always blame the US and the Saudis for just about everything that goes wrong in the Middle East, they tend to forget our direct involvement, the Russian influence and how they stoked up the flames with Nasser's Egypt against the Saudis, yep let's blame the Yanks they get everything wrong and get very little right.
 
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nitram77 said:
Has the pandemic lock down aided the radicalization of young single Muslims, the lock down has had effects on a lot of peoples mental health, if you're young, Muslim, and stuck on social media for months?
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It doesn't even have to be Muslims, many of the terrorists who have been involved with attacks in this country are mental health sufferers who are easy to manipulate into carrying out actions on behalf of ISIS etc
With this in mind, your point is a very good one.
 
Nobby_66 said:
It doesn't even have to be Muslims, many of the terrorists who have been involved with attacks in this country are mental health sufferers who are easy to manipulate into carrying out actions on behalf of ISIS etc
With this in mind, your point is a very good one.
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It's not mental health. Mental health affects all of us, not just the 5%. It isn't mental health that makes men in Afghanistan stone women to death, men in Syria behead infidels, men in Bangladesh throw acid in the faces of women and men in Somalia cut the labia of women so sex is painful. It's Islam. It's the religion.
 
ThreeSixes said:
It's not mental health. Mental health affects all of us, not just the 5%. It isn't mental health that makes men in Afghanistan stone women to death, men in Syria behead infidels, men in Bangladesh throw acid in the faces of women and men in Somalia cut the labia of women so sex is painful. It's Islam. It's the religion.
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But thats not what I said is it?
 
I've seen the Bitter Lake documentary Bud , WK would regular post the link and insist we all watched it.
An interesting look back at (relatively) recent history.
its a bit like the mental health issues.
Neither address the actual issue of Islam itself , and (in my cynical opinion) are arguments put forward to divert us away from discussing the real problem.
i would like to see proper debate , hence my earlier post regarding 'if I was in charge , what would I do'.
The country needs truth and factual debate , and not to hide behind a fear of offence or criticism.
 
nitram77 said:
Religion is not evil, people are. We fought the "holy wars" but I can find no justification for it in the Christian faith.
People might try to use Islam to justify their actions, but it is a peaceful religion, the evil is within the man , not the religion.
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Seems that Religion has been the vehicle to so many conflicts in history, some of it recent. People have been controlled by other, more influential people, in the name of religion. Religious zealots would no doubt all preach that their own religion is peaceful and exudes harmony. Yes, people are evil, but religion is the vehicle of division used to achieve evil ends. We`re all entitled to our own opinions, I can`t abide religions - any of them. I may well be in a minority here, guess i`ll find out on judgement day - whatever and whenever that is.
 
nitram77 said:
Religion is not evil, people are. We fought the "holy wars" but I can find no justification for it in the Christian faith.
People might try to use Islam to justify their actions, but it is a peaceful religion, the evil is within the man , not the religion.
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I disagree with this 100% (sorry!). I don't think it is the people inidividually that are evil (or mentally ill).

I know this is old ground, but the "evil" people? - Boko Haram (Nigeria) Taliban - (Afghanistan) - Al Shabaab (Somalia), Al Qaeda (Iraq), Hezbollah (Lebanon), Hamas (Palestine), Isis (Syria). That isn't just a random group of evil people that "just happen to be". There is no reason why the 5%, on an individual basis, should be evil than the rest of us

As I said before, RIP the victims. And BLM of course
 
LancsGordoRoad said:
Seems that Religion has been the vehicle to so many conflicts in history, some of it recent. People have been controlled by other, more influential people, in the name of religion. Religious zealots would no doubt all preach that their own religion is peaceful and exudes harmony. Yes, people are evil, but religion is the vehicle of division used to achieve evil ends. We`re all entitled to our own opinions, I can`t abide religions - any of them. I may well be in a minority here, guess i`ll find out on judgement day - whatever and whenever that is.
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Yes, indeed, Lancs.

Religion is stupid. It is murderous, bigoted and sexist crap. It is a tool used to control people and divide people.

Nevertheless, the great majority of religious people are kind, forgiving and peaceful.
 
valenciagill said:
I've seen the Bitter Lake documentary Bud , WK would regular post the link and insist we all watched it.
An interesting look back at (relatively) recent history.
its a bit like the mental health issues.
Neither address the actual issue of Islam itself , and (in my cynical opinion) are arguments put forward to divert us away from discussing the real problem.
i would like to see proper debate , hence my earlier post regarding 'if I was in charge , what would I do'.
The country needs truth and factual debate , and not to hide behind a fear of offence or criticism.
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Again, I agree with pretty much all you say there.

The only thing I'd argue with you about is that it is not just the issue of Islam but ALL religion that needs to be addressed.

You are wrong to blame Islam ahead of other religions. It might be that right now the majority of problems seem to stem from the Islamic religion but the very same problems emanate from the extremist versions of all religions.

The Bitter Lake documentary only goes so far back, and yes things could be traced back even further (isn't that the case though?), but it does offer a wider context and a broader perspective than the usually simplistic narrative, like the one TR et al offer.

I totally agree that we need full and open debate
 
Nobby_66 said:
It doesn't even have to be Muslims, many of the terrorists who have been involved with attacks in this country are mental health sufferers who are easy to manipulate into carrying out actions on behalf of ISIS etc
With this in mind, your point is a very good one.
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And included in the mental health issue are the effects of conflict on young minds followed by the dislocating effect of migration sometimes accompanied by rejection from some members of the host community. We may need to look at tightening restrictions but we certainly need to look at actively trying to integrate young people into their local communities. That applies to all our young people.
 
jogills said:
And included in the mental health issue are the effects of conflict on young minds followed by the dislocating effect of migration sometimes accompanied by rejection from some members of the host community. We may need to look at tightening restrictions but we certainly need to look at actively trying to integrate young people into their local communities. That applies to all our young people.
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Integration is key.
 
Buddha said:
Religion is stupid. It is murderous, bigoted and sexist crap. It is a tool used to control people and divide people.
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Yes, agreed.

And yet, the Government is using taxpayer's money to support religions. And there is a large number of people, spreading religions, that are moving into Europe and are coming this way.
 
Buddha said:
The only thing I'd argue with you about is that it is not just the issue of Islam but ALL religion that needs to be addressed.

You are wrong to blame Islam ahead of other religions. It might be that right now the majority of problems seem to stem from the Islamic religion but the very same problems emanate from the extremist versions of all religions.
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I disagree I'm afraid.
The narrative is very much 'its not islams fault'

Palestinians good , Israelis bad
Myanmar/Burma ...
Rohinga Muslims good , Buddhists bad
Punjab... Sikhs bad , Islam good
China , Chinese bad , Islam good.
India (Mohdi) bad , islam good.
Are we really supposed to believe that Buddhists , Sikhs ,Hindus, jews etc are all evil ?

The evidence is clear that the Koran promotes violence towards non-believers. We see can see this in the the use of knives, and the neck being the target.


http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=47&verse=4

Let's stop pretending that islamism is nothing to do with islam.

It's time we had national debate.
 
valenciagill said:
I disagree I'm afraid.
The narrative is very much 'its not islams fault'

Palestinians good , Israelis bad
Myanmar/Burma ...
Rohinga Muslims good , Buddhists bad
Punjab... Sikhs bad , Islam good
China , Chinese bad , Islam good.
India (Mohdi) bad , islam good.
Are we really supposed to believe that Buddhists , Sikhs ,Hindus, jews etc are all evil ?

The evidence is clear that the Koran promotes violence towards non-believers. We see can see this in the the use of knives, and the neck being the target.


http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=47&verse=4

Let's stop pretending that islamism is nothing to do with islam.

It's time we had national debate.
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Nobody is pretending that Islamism has nothing to do with Islam. You need to stop pretending that Islamism is representative of Islam.

No we are not supposed to believe that Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews are all evil. That would be daft. Just the same that believing that Christians or Muslims are evil. That's daft too.
 
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