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Labour Together

shotshy

Vital 1st Team Regular
#81
“To outsiders it looks like another blow against free speech “
That’s exactly why ‘outsiders’ should think carefully before offering comments.

It’s nothing to do with free speech.
Labour supporters will understand what it’s about.
You on the other hand, can’t.
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#82
The language is tricky
"anti-Israel" and anti-China

Yet anti-British and anti-American
Not anti-United Kingdom/Britain or anti-United States

And we'd be queasy about saying anti-Israeli or anti-Chinese

All shorthands for objecting to actions or governments, I suppose, but the language which comes easier suggests something in each identifier.
Not directed at you Buddha.

Is your Israeli friend an Arab? I assume not.
You've got a point there about the language, jokerman, it is tricky.

'Anti-Israel' is definitely shorthand for objecting to the Israeli government. It is in that sense that she is, 'anti-Israel'.

And no, she's not an Arab. She's white and Jewish (racially, certainly not religiously).
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#83
“To outsiders it looks like another blow against free speech “
That’s exactly why ‘outsiders’ should think carefully before offering comments.

It’s nothing to do with free speech.
Labour supporters will understand what it’s about.
You on the other hand, can’t.
You don't have to be a Labour supporter to know what it's really all about, shotty. I'm no Labour supporter but I understand this. Damned right this isn't really about free speech.

I agree with you though, that Tarian hasn't got a clue. He doesn't seem to understand anything beyond facts and definitions, and seems to have an inability to read between the lines or grasp anything that cannot be reduced down to fit within his own narrow parameters of logic and reason.
 

jokerman

Vital 1st Team Regular
#84
You've got a point there about the language, jokerman, it is tricky.

'Anti-Israel' is definitely shorthand for objecting to the Israeli government. It is in that sense that she is, 'anti-Israel'.

And no, she's not an Arab. She's white and Jewish (racially, certainly not religiously).
Cheers. I've no idea what to do with the language points -just a vague feeling. Mr Chomsky might say that language is never neutral nor innocent, but I think we language users usually use it neutrally or innocently.
 
#85
Buddha, Indeed, two very different things but some folk fail to separate the two, they see them as being linked together so cannot criticise one without the other.
For centuries the Jews were often treated as second class citizens in most of Europe strangely enough in Iran and Arab countries in the Middle East they co existed in quite large numbers.
The Nazi era was a game changer and what followed was an exodus to Palestine, if only they could have formed a state without uprooting so many Palestinians if it had been done without having to bring about the first Arab/Israeli war then the following wars and Israeli expansion might not well have taken place and the Arab countries and Israel could have lived side by side in harmony much like the Arabs and Jews had done for centuries before hand.
Of course that is all a pipe dream, trust is in short supply on both sides but I do believe the biggest problem in this country when it comes to antisemitism is when critics of Israel refer to it as the Jewish state, it is of course then regarded as being critical against Jews and Israel.
 

shotshy

Vital 1st Team Regular
#86
You've got a point there about the language, jokerman, it is tricky.

'Anti-Israel' is definitely shorthand for objecting to the Israeli government. It is in that sense that she is, 'anti-Israel'.

And no, she's not an Arab. She's white and Jewish (racially, certainly not religiously).
Have you ever read the book Exodus by Leon Uris, Budhha ?
It’s very biased towards Israel but a good read anyway.
 

jokerman

Vital 1st Team Regular
#87
Buddha, Indeed, two very different things but some folk fail to separate the two, they see them as being linked together so cannot criticise one without the other.
For centuries the Jews were often treated as second class citizens in most of Europe strangely enough in Iran and Arab countries in the Middle East they co existed in quite large numbers.
The Nazi era was a game changer and what followed was an exodus to Palestine, if only they could have formed a state without uprooting so many Palestinians if it had been done without having to bring about the first Arab/Israeli war then the following wars and Israeli expansion might not well have taken place and the Arab countries and Israel could have lived side by side in harmony much like the Arabs and Jews had done for centuries before hand.
Of course that is all a pipe dream, trust is in short supply on both sides but I do believe the biggest problem in this country when it comes to antisemitism is when critics of Israel refer to it as the Jewish state, it is of course then regarded as being critical against Jews and Israel.
I think the Christians pushed the divisions in a way that they had not been pushed before. But I don't think you have to go the full WK and suggest that all was sweetness and light under Islamic political systems. The millet system gave peoples' their space and even offered roads to advancement, but you had to know your place in the scheme of things, were forcefully reminded of it from time to time, and were designated scapegoats when things went wrong. Ask the Armenians, look at what the Middle East Jews did when Israel became available, and count the Jews left in their historic communities there today.
 
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Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#89
Buddha, Indeed, two very different things but some folk fail to separate the two, they see them as being linked together so cannot criticise one without the other.
For centuries the Jews were often treated as second class citizens in most of Europe strangely enough in Iran and Arab countries in the Middle East they co existed in quite large numbers.
The Nazi era was a game changer and what followed was an exodus to Palestine, if only they could have formed a state without uprooting so many Palestinians if it had been done without having to bring about the first Arab/Israeli war then the following wars and Israeli expansion might not well have taken place and the Arab countries and Israel could have lived side by side in harmony much like the Arabs and Jews had done for centuries before hand.
Of course that is all a pipe dream, trust is in short supply on both sides but I do believe the biggest problem in this country when it comes to antisemitism is when critics of Israel refer to it as the Jewish state, it is of course then regarded as being critical against Jews and Israel.
Yep, reckon you're right there, whitstable. Those people who fail to separate the two and believe that criticism of one equates to criticism of the other are just plain wrong.

And I'm very well aware of the shit Jewish people had to endure for a very long time, even before the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. My boy has been beginning to learn about the Holocaust and anti-Semitism as part of his home learning. It's good cos I've been able to help him (unlike the maths or science, where I start scratching my head and really trying to think and by the time I've begun to understand it, he's said, "It's ok dad, I think I've sussed it!").

I've been explaining to him that anti-Semitism goes back a long way is connected to prejudiced views concerning Jews and money (or the accruement of it), and the fact that Jews were not restricted (as Christians and Muslims were) from acting as money-lenders. I've explained to him that this is often referenced in popular culture (Shakespeare, Dickens, etc) and is usually the theme of racist jokes about the Jews. Hitler simply tapped into and exaggerated something that had long been existence throughout Europe, and proceeded to blame them for the Treaty of Versailles and pretty much everything else!

However, I've been keen to stress to him that it wasn't just the Jews who were targeted. Yes, they represented the main Nazi target but there were other targets too.
 
#90
However, I've been keen to stress to him that it wasn't just the Jews who were targeted. Yes, they represented the main Nazi target but there were other targets too.
Yes he needs to know that not one race or country is superior over others, that hatred towards other human beings is evil and does not belong in a fair and open society.
Shalom.
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#91
Have you ever read the book Exodus by Leon Uris, Budhha ?
It’s very biased towards Israel but a good read anyway.
No. I have heard of it though, I think.

Just read the wiki page (yeah, I know!) and that suggests that it is, as you say, very biased and that, "The book has been widely praised as successful propaganda for Israel."

Maybe I'll give it a try (although my access to books is restricted at the moment) but if I do I'll be reading it in the knowledge that it is propaganda.
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#92
Yes he needs to know that not one race or country is superior over others, that hatred towards other human beings is evil and does not belong in a fair and open society.
Shalom.
I do my best to teach him those things, whitstable.

And having grown up on traveller sites means he's seen first hand how discrimination and prejudice works.

I remember one time when the police had come onto site and were not being pleasant. I noticed one female officer approaching my son and starting to talk to him (he was only about 7 at the time). I wasn't happy and went over to find out what she was saying to him.

Now at the time I hadn't been to the bottle bank for weeks and weeks and outside my caravan were quite a few empty beer and wine bottles. The cheeky bitch of a copper was only asking my boy if his Dad was an alcoholic?! I was just about to lose my temper with the audacity of this 'intruder' when he delivered the most perfect response; out of the mouths of babes, as they say:

"That's rude!", he said, "You don't know my dad, he's not an alcoholic, he's just got lots of friends who come round to his caravan and leave their empty bottles here for him to recycle!"
 

Tarian

Vital Squad Member
#93
He doesn't seem to understand anything beyond facts and definitions, and seems to have an inability to read between the lines or grasp anything that cannot be reduced down to fit within his own narrow parameters of logic and reason.
Too many people mis-read between the lines.

Let me think......:hmmm:
- The reliability of logic and reason ?
or
- The shifting sands of emotion ?
Surely it should be a no-brainer ?

"reduced down to fit within ... logic and reason"
This really shows you don't get it.

Applying logic and reason to everything requires some work (...less so with practice) - but consistency and predictability pays off with reputation.:geek:

Reacting to everything instantly requires no effort at all - and does little for reputation (except maybe amongst Luvvies) :clown:
 

MedwayModernist

Vital Squad Member
#94
Too many people mis-read between the lines.

Let me think......:hmmm:
- The reliability of logic and reason ?
or
- The shifting sands of emotion ?
Surely it should be a no-brainer ?

"reduced down to fit within ... logic and reason"
This really shows you don't get it.

Applying logic and reason to everything requires some work (...less so with practice) - but consistency and predictability pays off with reputation.:geek:

Reacting to everything instantly requires no effort at all - and does little for reputation (except maybe amongst Luvvies) :clown:
The only problem is, if you start with incorrect assumptions/beliefs, logic ends up with a flawed answer
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#95
The only problem is, if you start with incorrect assumptions/beliefs, logic ends up with a flawed answer
Exactly, MM.

Logic and reason are important. But they're of no use if you start with a false premise.

Thing is, to understand this you need to have some imagination. If you have no imagination and rely only on cold hard facts, there is no beauty or real understanding. When everything is reduced down to reason and logic the essence and spirit is lost. When they are lost it's very easy to fall into the trap of believing something to be true simply because it is logical. But lots of things aint just down to logic and reason. If they were how many of us would be Gillingham supporters, ffs?!

It's no good approaching things without logic and reason, that'll only end badly. But if you remove emotion from the equation you're missing an essential aspect of humanity and you might as well be dealing with robots.

Now as much as I'm sure it would suit Tarian's narrative if we were all unimaginative automated robots, fortunately we are not.
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#96
Paul Newman as Ari Ben Canaan!!!!
What does this mean? Is there a film of this book with Paul Newman in it?

I don't think I've seen too many Paul Newman films. I remember enjoying Cool Hand Luke and The Sting but not sure I've seen many others. Not that I can remember anyway.
 

Tarian

Vital Squad Member
#98
My boy has been beginning to learn about the Holocaust and anti-Semitism as part of his home learning. It's good cos I've been able to help him....
....unlike the maths or science, where I start scratching my head and really trying to think and by the time I've begun to understand it........
Suddenly everything makes sense ! ;)

Any Questions on Maths or Physics (and maybe Chemistry), feel free to post them here. We have a whole household of numerates and 'ologists .......:flowers:
 

Gills 58

Vital 1st Team Regular
Don't hold your breath. Wait to see if it happens. Big on bluster and promises. Quality of delivery????

Even if schools built I bet they aren't funded adequately or staffed well as the job has got considerably worse over the last few yeara. Relieved I'm out of it.

Seriously hope I'm wrong.

As least he isn't a fan of the austerity he supported for 9 years, or so he says. I wonder if that's another lie.