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Labour Together

ARFUR CONNELL said:
Jerry, I agree with most of what you say, but surely you must accept that the unions, with their constant striking, were the masters of the downfall of a lot of our industry. We were not called "the sick man of Europe" for nothing.
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Thats the story as the victors tell the history.

The unions obviously did not help their cause but does that account for all of the jobs that went.

Sick man of europe: The factories and products that were left from the war needed upgrading as germany and japan built from new (with usa money) and the usa rose with the arms and food sales to the uk during the war.

The government had two policies, to crush labour and to move away from manufacturing to a service economy.

No help or assistance was given to manufacturing not even advice and the policy was sink or swim. Companies were not encouraged to stay and even encouraged to move. 40,000jobs gone in medway and I do not remember any major strike or union activity in medway.
The coal and steel industries were squeezed to smash the unions (labour voters) and orders were taken away from the ship builders.
During those years of world recession (not just uk) the Koreans and Japanese built new shipyards and were ready for the upturn.

The dogma was international capital and the will to buy anything from the rest of the world instead of from domestic even if cost equal as there was no room for labour supporter bases.

They managed this on a) growth of services but b) mainly north sea oil.
Without north sea oil there would never have been a long thatcher government or services sector. International capital, neo liberalism and exportation of jobs.

The exporting of our manufacturing jobs and offshoring of our jobs has continued through all governments.
The manufacturing also gave us apprenticeships so now they are extinct in comparrison.
This was when we started ready trained immigrants as why would we want skilled labour and innovation.
We were the greatest sea and aviation manufacturers.
Did the unions drop tsr2, was it not thatcher that forced the use of USA helicopters instead of British cheaper and better built ones.

The story goes on, just the unions doing it is a discourtacy to the truth.
 
British manufacturing suffered 2 major problems.
Greedy owners who took the profit without investing.
Unions who thought they had total power and would strike for the least little thing.

When industry shut down it was too late.
 
Jerryattrick said:
Thats the story as the victors tell the history.

The unions obviously did not help their cause but does that account for all of the jobs that went.

Sick man of europe: The factories and products that were left from the war needed upgrading as germany and japan built from new (with usa money) and the usa rose with the arms and food sales to the uk during the war.

The government had two policies, to crush labour and to move away from manufacturing to a service economy.

No help or assistance was given to manufacturing not even advice and the policy was sink or swim. Companies were not encouraged to stay and even encouraged to move. 40,000jobs gone in medway and I do not remember any major strike or union activity in medway.
The coal and steel industries were squeezed to smash the unions (labour voters) and orders were taken away from the ship builders.
During those years of world recession (not just uk) the Koreans and Japanese built new shipyards and were ready for the upturn.

The dogma was international capital and the will to buy anything from the rest of the world instead of from domestic even if cost equal as there was no room for labour supporter bases.

They managed this on a) growth of services but b) mainly north sea oil.
Without north sea oil there would never have been a long thatcher government or services sector. International capital, neo liberalism and exportation of jobs.

The exporting of our manufacturing jobs and offshoring of our jobs has continued through all governments.
The manufacturing also gave us apprenticeships so now they are extinct in comparrison.
This was when we started ready trained immigrants as why would we want skilled labour and innovation.
We were the greatest sea and aviation manufacturers.
Did the unions drop tsr2, was it not thatcher that forced the use of USA helicopters instead of British cheaper and better built ones.

The story goes on, just the unions doing it is a discourtacy to the truth.
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I think that part of the problem that we have is that we are still fighting the past.

Sure, Thatcherism was a disaster for the Labour movement, but that was over forty years ago now.
Many workers were not even born then.

The old die hard commie socialists are still fighting a war that has long been consigned to history.

The Labour party under sir K should be telling us what will be great under his leadership, not just opposing the existing government.
During this virus crisis, it would have been a wonderful opportunity to tell the nation what they would have done differently, before the event, not after it.
any muppet can do that with hindsight.
Instead, they hid behind the sofa for fear of saying the wrong thing.

I want the opposition to oppose where necessary, not just out of habit.
I want the opposition to come up with sensible alternatives.
'This is what we would do' would be nice.
Give a viable alternative to government policy.
I'm not talking Uni politics, like old Jezza tried to play.
Serous, planned and costed alternatives, particularly on the things that encourage young voters.

What is undeniable, is that Labour must reclaim the traditional working vote, both in England and in Scotland.
Will Sir K be the man to do that?
Time will tell but I doubt it.
Lis Nandy would have been better suited to that role.
Starmer is viewed by many as exactly what he is. A wealthy London QC.
Maybe he's an interim leader who will weed out Militant and give the Labour party back to the working class .
One thing is for ceratin, until the Labour party can come to terms with itself, it cannot win power for the Tory election machine.
 
shotshy said:
I think that part of the problem that we have is that we are still fighting the past.

Sure, Thatcherism was a disaster for the Labour movement, but that was over forty years ago now.
Many workers were not even born then.

The old die hard commie socialists are still fighting a war that has long been consigned to history.

The Labour party under sir K should be telling us what will be great under his leadership, not just opposing the existing government.
During this virus crisis, it would have been a wonderful opportunity to tell the nation what they would have done differently, before the event, not after it.
any muppet can do that with hindsight.
Instead, they hid behind the sofa for fear of saying the wrong thing.

I want the opposition to oppose where necessary, not just out of habit.
I want the opposition to come up with sensible alternatives.
'This is what we would do' would be nice.
Give a viable alternative to government policy.
I'm not talking Uni politics, like old Jezza tried to play.
Serous, planned and costed alternatives, particularly on the things that encourage young voters.

What is undeniable, is that Labour must reclaim the traditional working vote, both in England and in Scotland.
Will Sir K be the man to do that?
Time will tell but I doubt it.
Lis Nandy would have been better suited to that role.
Starmer is viewed by many as exactly what he is. A wealthy London QC.
Maybe he's an interim leader who will weed out Militant and give the Labour party back to the working class .
One thing is for ceratin, until the Labour party can come to terms with itself, it cannot win power for the Tory election machine.
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Except Nandy already bending to the identity fascists re trans laws.
 
shotshy said:
Trans laws may well be your bag Jerry, but I guess that most, including myself, couldn’t give a monkeys about it.
I more motivated by issues that affect many.
I literally have no interest in whether someone identifies as a bloke, woman or goat.
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Nothing to do with adults who are born with both or the wrong tackle.

Its more that a child of six can be given puberty halting drugs or later sex changes after being indoctrinated to believe that they are the wrong sex. What if the child is going through a phase or is actually going to simply be gay?

Legislation could follow Ottowa where if a person tells you they want to be called ze instead of mr and you refuse to call them by that you can be jailed.

Which toilets will people choose to go in. Already men self identifying as a woman have changed to a female prison and committed rape. Same issues around refuge shelters.
It wont be long before you will be shamed or imprisoned if you believe in biology and science.

Keep quiet to child abuse and deny science - up to you. Maybe Darwin and Galileo books need to be burned.
 
Jerryattrick said:
Nothing to do with adults who are born with both or the wrong tackle.

Its more that a child of six can be given puberty halting drugs or later sex changes after being indoctrinated to believe that they are the wrong sex. What if the child is going through a phase or is actually going to simply be gay?

Legislation could follow Ottowa where if a person tells you they want to be called ze instead of mr and you refuse to call them by that you can be jailed.

Which toilets will people choose to go in. Already men self identifying as a woman have changed to a female prison and committed rape. Same issues around refuge shelters.
It wont be long before you will be shamed or imprisoned if you believe in biology and science.

Keep quiet to child abuse and deny science - up to you. Maybe Darwin and Galileo books need to be burned.
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I applaud your passion on this subject but have to admit that for me, it’s not something I’m over duly concerned about.
A child of six cannot be given any drugs without parents permission and as for changing rooms, I couldn’t really give a toss.
Given the problems in the world, I couldn’t expend energy on this one.
We’ll agree to disagree on this subject.
 
shotshy said:
I applaud your passion on this subject but have to admit that for me, it’s not something I’m over duly concerned about.
A child of six cannot be given any drugs without parents permission and as for changing rooms, I couldn’t really give a toss.
Given the problems in the world, I couldn’t expend energy on this one.
We’ll agree to disagree on this subject.
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So you just picked up changing rooms from somewhere lol, nothing to do with the subject. Prisons and womens refuges are not changing rooms.
Yes children can and are being given treatment with doctors recommendations without needing parents consent normally at puberty and can also be allowed surgety under the same laws. It has been argued in the high court and will come up in the bill amendment.
There are many other negative aspects and just because you don't know or care about it (as was my attitude) then look out for it coming up fast.
 
Jerryattrick said:
So you just picked up changing rooms from somewhere lol, nothing to do with the subject. Prisons and womens refuges are not changing rooms.
Yes children can and are being given treatment with doctors recommendations without needing parents consent normally at puberty and can also be allowed surgety under the same laws. It has been argued in the high court and will come up in the bill amendment.
There are many other negative aspects and just because you don't know or care about it (as was my attitude) then look out for it coming up fast.
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Jerry - do you have any reputable sources that say that the whole men trying to get into female prisons is a thing?

Back to the point of Labour, I found the independent's analysis quite good.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...d-miliband-2017-election-report-a9577121.html
 
MedwayModernist said:
Jerry - do you have any reputable sources that say that the whole men trying to get into female prisons is a thing?

Back to the point of Labour, I found the independent's analysis quite good.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...d-miliband-2017-election-report-a9577121.html
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I did look it all up a while ago, will try to look again. It was reported by the prison service so should be able to find it. Rory Stewart revealed it when prisons minister.
The issues with women's refuges and spaces is everywhere as the trans brigade were calling for womens rights groups that spoke up to be expelled from Labour etc.
Trans kids stuff was actually a high court case brought by people who had worked at tavistock and resigned over the issue. More in the governments proposal for the bill update.
Ottawa canadian law can be easily looked up.

I did not worry about any of it but my son kept on about different parts and i looked it all up to shut him up but its an inconvenient truth.
 
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Shotshy - are you really a member of the Labour Party? If yes, would that be fee paying direct to the Party, or Union affiliated? Just wondering.
 
RotherhitheGill said:
Shotshy - are you really a member of the Labour Party? If yes, would that be fee paying direct to the Party, or Union affiliated? Just wondering.
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I was wondering too tbh.

Mind you I do agree with Shotshy re moving to the centre ground even though I would identify, just for you Jerry :-) as on the left of thre party re what I'd like in my perfect world.
 
Gills 58 said:
I was wondering too tbh.

Mind you I do agree with Shotshy re moving to the centre ground even though I would identify, just for you Jerry :-) as on the left of thre party re what I'd like in my perfect world.
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Yup lol, one of the positive things from the report was that most of labours policies were popular if asked separately from election, brexit or leadership.
What is ironic is that some of those rejected policies will be implemented by this government.
 
I’ve just finished reading the Guardian View on the Labour Together report and most interesting was the comment section.

Blairites saying that the far left should leave the party if they don’t like Starmer.
Corbynites saying that the liberals should leave the party and give it back to the true labour supporters.

Labour is a long way from reconciliation
 
shotshy said:
I’ve just finished reading the Guardian View on the Labour Together report and most interesting was the comment section.

Blairites saying that the far left should leave the party if they don’t like Starmer.
Corbynites saying that the liberals should leave the party and give it back to the true labour supporters.

Labour is a long way from reconciliation
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Comments sections are where the loonies go, a bit like this board. Seriously they are. I'll give you a challenge; watch a youtube video and scroll beyond the first few comments. I wager that in a great many cases a dozen comments in someone will drop a racist, sexist, mysoginist, or just plain vile bomb.

In terms of beliefs I'd put myself well over on the left but I don't associate with leftist groupings and have no time for them. I'm principally interested in winning power to effect positive change in matters large and small. The overwhelming number of Labour members that I come across from all wings are similar in this respect. Young people dream stronger dreams and rightly so.

Wait till Labour gets the first scent of a changing political wind, wins a few council seats, gains a little confidence. These are the things that quell discord especially when the other side starts biting each other.
 
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