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Labour Together

Jerryattrick

Vital 1st Team Regular
#61
Knew that was coming. Some on the left of the party have an issue with jews in my experience of the Labour party, since joining in 1979.

At best her behaviour was naive and dumb. That's enough to sack her imo as I've had it with incompetents in positions of power in the party.
I dont have problems with jews I have problems with being told that criticising the bad actions of any nation is racist. I also have problems with countries financing our MPs (both sides) and media, cosying up to murdoch was bad enough.

Her crime as you say is that she was naive and dumb, when you know your enemies are all around you. You dont need to hand the stick to beat you with to the other side.
Surely in positions of power you would re-read things before they go out or get one of your staff to read it and advise.
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#62
So Maxine Peake's claim has been dismissed as a conspiracy theory and anti-Semitism. Is it either? Quite possibly both. But also possibly neither.

I have no reason to believe her claim that the kneeling tactic used by the police officer on George Floyd, "was learnt from seminars with the Israeli", other than the statement issued by the spokesperson for the Israeli secret services.

If her claim is untrue and/or unfounded then it could be construed as both a conspiracy theory and anti-Semitic. But if there is any truth in her claim then it is neither.

I'm not really sure how we can be sure either way.

What I'd like to know is where, if not from the Israelis (which I've no reason to believe or disbelieve), where has this tactic come from?

Is it an approved tactic that US police have been trained to use? What about our police, is that kneeling on the neck restraint manoeuvre permitted here in the UK?

It seems like an unnecessarily dangerous tactic that shirley should not be being used during a routine arrest, here or anywhere. Any fool might have guessed it could easily have tragic consequences...
 

Gills 58

Vital 1st Team Regular
#63
Maxine Peake is free to say what she likes. The "Israeli" bit was not directly anti semitic. I have strong opinions on how Israel operates myself.

However, I am not a front bench shadow minister. RLB is not free to say exactly what she likes. She played into the hands of the enemy as Jerry says. She still behaves and talks like a student. No chance of Labour being taken seriously by the electorate if such people hold senior positions.
 
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jogills

Vital 1st Team Regular
#64
I accept that I have been guilty of the same omission in almost all of the coverage and comment on this incident. It has centred on Labour Party politics internal and external and principally its relationship with jewish party members and supporters.

More pertinently why did Maxine Peake reach for Israel when referencing the murder of George Floyd? Why did someone, who I am certain was appalled by that event and for all the right reasons, go first to a supposed link with oppression in Israel. That is bonkers and has sucked attention from the main issue.

Maxine Peake has now apparently accepted that her claim had no foundation. Where did she come across this linking? I suspect, but have no proof, that she has absorbed it from whatever bubbles she inhabits. There is a danger for all of us that we go to certain sources, or individuals and accept what they say uncritically. It's not a matter of standing constantly on the edge of outrage just of keeping the sceptical eye open.
 

shotshy

Vital 1st Team Regular
#65
Sir K is meeting with a lobby of MPs this morning who are opposed to her removal from the front bench and are allegedly threatening to quit the Labour Party.
It could be his opportunity to do a ‘Boris’ and get rid of the nuisance in one foul swoop.

Remember the Tory Rebels?
No ?
Nor does anyone else because most are no longer in Politics.

Dear old Anna Soubry was on Sky yesterday and it really was quite sad.
To her credit, she still stood her ground and said 17.4 million people were bonkers and the U.K. will fall off the edge of the world.
No fool like an old fool.
 

Gills 58

Vital 1st Team Regular
#66
Sir K is meeting with a lobby of MPs this morning who are opposed to her removal from the front bench and are allegedly threatening to quit the Labour Party.
It could be his opportunity to do a ‘Boris’ and get rid of the nuisance in one foul swoop.

Remember the Tory Rebels?
No ?
Nor does anyone else because most are no longer in Politics.

Dear old Anna Soubry was on Sky yesterday and it really was quite sad.
To her credit, she still stood her ground and said 17.4 million people were bonkers and the U.K. will fall off the edge of the world.
No fool like an old fool.
If they want to quit then they are welcome to f#ck off as far as I'm concerned. Still deluded little students in a grown up world.

Re your "rebels" Shotshy, this government is sorely misssing the basic competence and experience of those that didn't adhere to the Brexit folly. The cabinet is full of no marks talentless subservients and far right nutters. I can only think of Sunak as having any ability.
 

shotshy

Vital 1st Team Regular
#67
If they want to quit then they are welcome to f#ck off as far as I'm concerned. Still deluded little students in a grown up world.

Re your "rebels" Shotshy, this government is sorely misssing the basic competence and experience of those that didn't adhere to the Brexit folly. The cabinet is full of no marks talentless subservients and far right nutters. I can only think of Sunak as having any ability.
That’s a whole different discussion 58.
The point was that Cummings/Johnson used the situation to get rid of those who were a pain in the arse to them.
Sir K could do the same if the opportunity arose.

The public are never going to vote for a party at odds with itself.
They clearly cannot play nicely together and I really don't get this Broad Church bollax.

Given that the amount of Labour MPs is the lowest in modern memory, losing a few militants is going to make no difference at all.

Johnson took his decision because he had no majority.
A minority of five or twenty makes no difference when in government, the same applies in opposition.
202 or 192 MPs
So what?
 

Tarian

Vital Squad Member
#68
I don't usually involve myself in internal Labour spats ......
.....but Freedom of Speech is too important - and it's under threat.

What was RLB's "crime" ?

She's one of the worst form of socialists - but if Freedom of Speech is to mean anything, it means allowing opponents to say what they want.

She repeats someone's idea that Israeli forces might have trained US Police in knees on necks ?
So what ?
How is that "anti-semantic" ?

I disagree with the left's constant Israel-bashing - the most democratic country in the Middle East.....
...but as long as critics of Palestinian rocket-senders get air-time - then RLB can criticise Israel as much as she likes.


What's of more interest is the Petition to re-instate RLB ....
.....presumably signed by people who usually want to shut down anyone who falls foul of their PC "rules" .:rolleyes:
 

MedwayModernist

Vital Squad Member
#69
She's one of the worst form of socialists - but if Freedom of Speech is to mean anything, it means allowing opponents to say what they want.

She repeats someone's idea that Israeli forces might have trained US Police in knees on necks ?
So what ?
How is that "anti-semantic" ?

I disagree with the left's constant Israel-bashing - the most democratic country in the Middle East.....
...but as long as critics of Palestinian rocket-senders get air-time - then RLB can criticise Israel as much as she likes.


What's of more interest is the Petition to re-instate RLB ....
.....presumably signed by people who usually want to shut down anyone who falls foul of their PC "rules" .:rolleyes:
Her crime was being a bloody idiot.

The way the piece read, it was a stupid inclusion of a line that didn't need including at all. It basically suggested that the reason the George Floyd died was because of tactics taught by Israel. So by extension, the riots that happened in the US were Israel's fault.

Criticism of Israel is not necessarily criticism of the Jewish people, however it certainly is borderline, so when the labour party are trying to clean up their act with regards to the genuine anti-semites that have been in the party previously under the idiot Corbyn, retweeting that was never going to end well.

I have a decent amount of personal experience working with Jewish people, as the firm I work for has a significant number of Jews working for them. I'd never worked with anyone wearing a Kippah before I worked there, and on my first day I'd seen about 20 on the floor alone.

Accordingly I've made a few friends, and have had many a (usually drunken conversation - ironically at a Christmas party) with them about Israel's actions, and the simple fact is that they are very very very defensive of Israel, as it's the only country in the world that they can 100% go to if a holocaust was to come again.

Criticism of Israel is not inherently anti semitic, (lord knows I disagree with a LOT of what they do), but it is used by dog whistle racists all the time.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

The two criteria below are probably something to be considered for RLB's actions.

- Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

- Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
 

jogills

Vital 1st Team Regular
#70
I don't usually involve myself in internal Labour spats ......
.....but Freedom of Speech is too important - and it's under threat.

What was RLB's "crime" ?

She's one of the worst form of socialists - but if Freedom of Speech is to mean anything, it means allowing opponents to say what they want.

She repeats someone's idea that Israeli forces might have trained US Police in knees on necks ?
So what ?
How is that "anti-semantic" ?

I disagree with the left's constant Israel-bashing - the most democratic country in the Middle East.....
...but as long as critics of Palestinian rocket-senders get air-time - then RLB can criticise Israel as much as she likes.


What's of more interest is the Petition to re-instate RLB ....
.....presumably signed by people who usually want to shut down anyone who falls foul of their PC "rules" .:rolleyes:
OK you believe in free speech without exception but you also jump up and down pretty quickly when that speech offends you. That way may have a certain stripped down and absolute logic but it tends to increasing abuse and ends in fighting. Your logic over your version of free speech assumes that all will abuse each other in a civilised manner while not taking offence.
 

shotshy

Vital 1st Team Regular
#71
“I usually don’t involve myself in internal Labour spats “

So why bother now.
If you believe that this is about free speech then you know nothing of the current situation.

Just stick to subjects that you know a little about mate, otherwise you make yourself look ridiculous.
 

jokerman

Vital 1st Team Regular
#72
Her crime was being a bloody idiot.

The way the piece read, it was a stupid inclusion of a line that didn't need including at all. It basically suggested that the reason the George Floyd died was because of tactics taught by Israel. So by extension, the riots that happened in the US were Israel's fault.

Criticism of Israel is not necessarily criticism of the Jewish people, however it certainly is borderline, so when the labour party are trying to clean up their act with regards to the genuine anti-semites that have been in the party previously under the idiot Corbyn, retweeting that was never going to end well.

I have a decent amount of personal experience working with Jewish people, as the firm I work for has a significant number of Jews working for them. I'd never worked with anyone wearing a Kippah before I worked there, and on my first day I'd seen about 20 on the floor alone.

Accordingly I've made a few friends, and have had many a (usually drunken conversation - ironically at a Christmas party) with them about Israel's actions, and the simple fact is that they are very very very defensive of Israel, as it's the only country in the world that they can 100% go to if a holocaust was to come again.

Criticism of Israel is not inherently anti semitic, (lord knows I disagree with a LOT of what they do), but it is used by dog whistle racists all the time.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

The two criteria below are probably something to be considered for RLB's actions.

- Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

- Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
My Israeli friends will argue hotly with each other about the most fundamental questions regarding Israel's track record and direction, but they face the outside world as one.
 

Tarian

Vital Squad Member
#74
OK you believe in free speech without exception but you also jump up and down pretty quickly when that speech offends you.
Not exactly.
I will point out abuse - as mostly it is a single throwaway line with "hatred" to some person or group - without any supporting evidence to justify the vitriol.
(Perhaps have a look at that link defining anti-semitism and "hatred"...?)

i) Highlighting abuse exposes a weak argument.

ii) Abusive posts are also a form of bullying. They discourage people who disagree with the "bully".

It seems invidious to single out one poster on here, as there are plenty of opinionated posters.
Shotshy disagrees with me (and others) a lot.
But I cannot recall a single example of personal abuse.
He attacks # arguments not people. (y)
[# Edit: "challenges" ]

That way may have a certain stripped down and absolute logic but it tends to increasing abuse and ends in fighting..
I disagree (about increasing abuse .. fighting)
Passionate views have been posted by many ....
.... and IMO, abuse has reduced.

I'm tempted to suggest that more, different posters chip in .... when a thread is going well - i.e. without abuse.

What's not to like ? :wave:
 

Jerryattrick

Vital 1st Team Regular
#75
My general point is about the funding of our MPs on both sides and our media by foreign governments or political organisations (sometimes disguised as charities or third parties). Its irrelevant to me which country as for me its potential corruption or undue influence.
 

shotshy

Vital 1st Team Regular
#76
The most militant anti-Israel person I know is an Israeli...
He/she is anti their own country ?
That’s rare, particularly where Israel is concerned.
I worked quite closely with some guys from Israel and they were fanatically patriotic.
Always one I suppose.
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#77
He/she is anti their own country ?
That’s rare, particularly where Israel is concerned.
I worked quite closely with some guys from Israel and they were fanatically patriotic.
Always one I suppose.
I know it's rare. This person is a committed anarchist and anti-fascist. I sometimes think that she is so vehemently opposed to the Israeli government to kind of counter-balance the patriotism of the majority of her fellow Israelis! Always there on the front line, a proper pro-Palistine activist who is probably even more active than I realise!

Being anti Israel simply does not equate with being anti-Semitic. They are two very different things. Anybody who tells you otherwise is a liar and a fraud.
 

shotshy

Vital 1st Team Regular
#78
12,000 have now signed the petition to reinstate Long Bailey.
I got an email link via my Hotmail account.
I can’t figure out who has sent it so I’ve replied declining the invitation.
Gdpr abuse?
 

jokerman

Vital 1st Team Regular
#79
The language is tricky
"anti-Israel" and anti-China

Yet anti-British and anti-American
Not anti-United Kingdom/Britain or anti-United States

And we'd be queasy about saying anti-Israeli or anti-Chinese

All shorthands for objecting to actions or governments, I suppose, but the language which comes easier suggests something in each identifier.
Not directed at you Buddha.

Is your Israeli friend an Arab? I assume not.
 

Tarian

Vital Squad Member
#80
“I usually don’t involve myself in internal Labour spats “

So why bother now.
If you believe that this is about free speech then you know nothing of the current situation.

Just stick to subjects that you know a little about mate, otherwise you make yourself look ridiculous.
"Why bother" commenting ?

To outsiders, it looks like another blow against Free Speech.
Surely THAT's a good enough reason to comment ?
Free Speech should be for all - even RLB !

If it is about internal Labour politics ....
Was a PC claim of imagined "offence" (or whatever) a good excuse ?