#COVID19

[in_the_top_one]

Why is it a given that a scientist would willfully suppress critical advice in a pandemic? This isn't North Korea

Perhaps willful suppression is taking it too far but don't you remember them looking deeply uncomfortable when quizzed over how Cummings had undermined the message and ducking the questions? It would be naive to think there is no political control of the messages at briefings. The chief nurse that gave the 'wrong' answer in practice and was then cut from the briefings? The period when they wanted to ease the lockdown despite not having hit the targets (that were set when accompanied by scientists) when the scientists were absent because they were apparently to busy with other things?

 

[in_the_top_one]

If you're out and about in Sydney these days you will probably see more folk wearing masks than not. And when visiting some stores, buses, trains etc I'm one of them. My wife and daughters insist on it, not that I need telling, it's an obvious help. And I do know that it only helps to restrict the passing on of the germs but quite frequently a carrier doesn't know that he or she is infected so why not. In spite of the obvious benefit some people still complain, it's just like Trumps divine right.

Haven't heard the word "rotter" since I was a small boy reading "Just William" books. Before your time, you'll just have to google it.

I read some of the Just William stories as a kid. I'm familiar with Violet Elizabeth Bott.

 

[in_the_top_one]

Scotland, Wales and NI were all behind England in the curve. Their lockdown timing was better. I'm not giving them much credit for that because they probably didn't have much choice. They did, however, choose to have clearer messaging and exit lockdown at different times based on the epidemiology.

You can keep banging on about Corbyn all you like. I cannot imagine they would have been worse. Really, it seems to me that you have got to a point where you are defending this government about anything and everything because of Brexit. You cannot accept they are clowns because of brexit. You would rather have them than anyone else because of brexit.

 

[in_the_top_one]

A guide by the NHS/government/manufacturers would be useful.

Couldn't agree more with this bit.
We were taught how to wash our hands (a good thing) but not how to wear a mask. I don't understand why not.

Anyway, while wearing a mask under your nose seems a bit like wearing underpants with Little ITTO hanging over the elasticated band, it does, at least, stop spittle from the mouth being projected at whomever you are taking to when annunciating the Ps, Ts and Fs. So, still not completely useless, just a dumb thing to do.

 

[in_the_top_one]

ORF for the sake of balance (and no doubt the usual amount of flak) here's another view of things.

A WELL WORN mask is probably beneficial. Whether a mask is beneficial is not as clear cut as people would make out on here though. My daughter wears masks all day long. She is a dental hygienist and treats patients in 30 or 40 minute sessions. They have been told a normal mask guards you for 20 minutes at which point they start to get damp. They also shouldn't really be touched. I wonder how many people shopping in their local town change their mask every 20 minutes. Most people here (including me) wear one in a shop, but take it off in between. If you go in five shops you should really wear a clean mask every time, as taking it off and putting it back on doesn't really work, and even in shops I see people walking round with them pulled below their noses, which defeats the object of wearing them.

Whether a damp or previously used mask is better than no mask is anyones guess.

It isn't about guarding you, it's about guarding others.
I'm sure that has been mentioned before.

 

[in_the_top_one]

A WELL WORN mask is probably beneficial.

I'm just wondering why you needed to add "probably" here? It introduces unnecessary doubt and conveys the idea that you are only reluctantly conceding the point.

There has been so much mask scepticism, why do we think masks even exist?

 

[Lienking]

Scotland, Wales and NI were all behind England in the curve. Their lockdown timing was better. I'm not giving them much credit for that because they probably didn't have much choice. They did, however, choose to have clearer messaging and exit lockdown at different times based on the epidemiology.

You can keep banging on about Corbyn all you like. I cannot imagine they would have been worse. Really, it seems to me that you have got to a point where you are defending this government about anything and everything because of Brexit. You cannot accept they are clowns because of brexit. You would rather have theDoesn't say a lot for having a clear line of thought.m than anyone else because of brexit.

I would rather have them because they were democratically voted in, and promised to do what we had democratically voted for. Corbyn would probably still be sitting on the fence, trying to work out if any form of lockdown was against our human rights. Abbott wanted Public schools banned, but then sent her own kid to one.

 

[in_the_top_one]

I rest, your honour.

 

[Old Red Fart]

ORF for the sake of balance (and no doubt the usual amount of flak) here's another view of things.

A WELL WORN mask is probably beneficial. Whether a mask is beneficial is not as clear cut as people would make out on here though. My daughter wears masks all day long. She is a dental hygienist and treats patients in 30 or 40 minute sessions. They have been told a normal mask guards you for 20 minutes at which point they start to get damp. They also shouldn't really be touched. I wonder how many people shopping in their local town change their mask every 20 minutes. Most people here (including me) wear one in a shop, but take it off in between. If you go in five shops you should really wear a clean mask every time, as taking it off and putting it back on doesn't really work, and even in shops I see people walking round with them pulled below their noses, which defeats the object of wearing them.

Whether a damp or previously used mask is better than no mask is anyones guess.

Interesting stuff LK and I'm still learning. We seem to have quite a variety of masks over here, initially I picked up 30 of them designed to be worn just once and then chucked out, no instruction about the length of time involved but I did notice that they consisted of 3 thicknesses of fabric, I presumed from that that the intention was to absorb as much dampness as possible. I have to wear specs these days and they seem to fog up a bit but not enough to stop me. One of my daughters has just made me a couple of washable masks, one of them with a design to scare the great grandkids, just gently, and they are made with 3 sets of fairly absorbent material, good fit. None of the masks are designed to be worn below the nose, goes partway to defeating the purpose.

I'm inclined to think that any mask is better than nothing.

 

[Lienking]

I'm just wondering why you needed to add "probably" here? It introduces unnecessary doubt and conveys the idea that you are only reluctantly conceding the point.

There has been so much mask scepticism, why do we think masks even exist?

Medical grade masks worn by doctors are one thing. A piece of cloth tested in a lab is another. I will happily wear a mask where asked to, but if it was that clear they are better WHO would have said so within a week or two. It's clear that the data has taken ages to prove anything like conclusive, and even then doesn't take into account human behaviour. Are you safer a metre away from someone where you both have a decent mask, or keeping three metres away from someone without one ?

For ages I stayed out of shops, with a mask, I now go in them. There are all sorts of different human behaviours. What seems logical often isn't.

 

[Lienking]

I rest, your honour.

It does make me laugh. I'm biased (probably true) because I voted for the Tories and Brexit. All the rest of the people on here are open minded people who will wait to see whether or not Brexit is successful, whether the Tories achieve things in their five years. They will take a balanced view as to who to blame for things etc.

The Remainers can't wait to blame things on Brexit before we have even got out of BRINO, rub their hands because we've already achieved no deal, whilst the Labour voters will blame the Tories for everything that happens no matter what the situation or advice they are given. At least I will wait to see what happens.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

It does make me laugh. I'm biased (probably true) because I voted for the Tories and Brexit. All the rest of the people on here are open minded people who will wait to see whether or not Brexit is successful, whether the Tories achieve things in their five years. They will take a balanced view as to who to blame for things etc.

The Remainers can't wait to blame things on Brexit before we have even got out of BRINO, rub their hands because we've already achieved no deal, whilst the Labour voters will blame the Tories for everything that happens no matter what the situation or advice they are given. At least I will wait to see what happens.

Tell you what, put my mind at ease and list all the new trade deals we have in place for when we lose all those with the EU or negotiated through them.

 

[Lienking]

Perhaps willful suppression is taking it too far but don't you remember them looking deeply uncomfortable when quizzed over how Cummings had undermined the message and ducking the questions? It would be naive to think there is no political control of the messages at briefings. The chief nurse that gave the 'wrong' answer in practice and was then cut from the briefings? The period when they wanted to ease the lockdown despite not having hit the targets (that were set when accompanied by scientists) when the scientists were absent because they were apparently to busy with other things?

The problem is though, it isn't a straight choice between people dying from Covid or living. The scientists can give a view on Covid, but the government are left with the unenviable decision as to whether more lives will be saved from covid in lockdown, or whether more lives are lost long term from lockdown because of the failure to treat other things, not to mention how many people will die if the economy is ruined.

The BBC highlighted the dilemma the government are in, with their interviews when the France airbridge was removed. The first Tory was asked whether it was fair and right to remove the airbridge so quickly. The second Tory on was asked why they were leaving it till 4 a.m. the following day when they could have made the isolation immediate. They can't win whatever they do.

 

[Old Red Fart]

ORF like everything else on here, you are only really being given one side of the coin. You are probably already aware, but I will start with the basics. Over here many things are devolved down to the national parliaments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Health is one of these, so Labour are responsible for health in Wales, SNP in Scotland etc

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/coronavirus-lockdown-rules-four-nations-uk

As can be seen from this Boris is deemed on here to be "a butcher" yet little Miss Perfect (Nicola Sturgeon) is almost incapable of doing anything wrong, yet whilst England is now deemed to be late locking down, Labour (Wales), SNP (Scotland) and Northern Ireland locked down on the same date,

There has been criticism of moving untested people into care homes. It would seem that in Scotland patients who had tested POSITIVE were sent into care homes. In Scotland the NHS gets the blame, in England (and probably the rest of the UK) BJ gets the blame.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/fury-elderly-patients-moved-care-22531776

I'm sure England has made many mistakes in dealing with covid. Nearly all of these have been replicated by Labour and SNP in Wales and Scotland. England also has numerous disadvantages, which no one seems to take into account.

https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/documents/censusresults/release1a/rel1asbfig8.pdf

There seems to be a fairly direct link between population density and deaths. Unfortunately England is the most densely populated large country in Europe.

Obesity makes people vulnerable. We seem to have one of the highest rates of obesity too. the effects on BAME communities are still being looked into too.

We are 20 miles from France, and a vast hub of international travel. The bug also seems to thrive more at certain cooler temperatures, which are more likely to be found in the UK than other places. New Zealand seems to be 1000 miles from anywhere. Aus has much higher temperatures and 3 people per square kilometre, as compared with 407 in England. I know you don't all live in the outback, but you have massive advantages over us.

As for "the clowns", they really are making a hash of some things, though they are not being helped by many people. Of course we will never know, but in my opinion this set of clowns will still do a better job than the other set (Corbyn, Abbott, McDonnell etc).

That's very informative LK and I seem to be incapable of taking it all in at the moment, but I will given a bit more time. I appreciate that the UK and Oz are vastly different but some things remain the same and there's no doubt in my mind that the UK govt was far too late in getting to grips with the problem. In some ways we're similar, we have 7 states and at one time or another the boundaries have been closed between all of them giving us all sorts of problems. Even now you cannot travel between Victoria and NSW or South Australia, or NSW and Qld, and so on. It's a real pain especially for folk living on the borders, farmers for example living in a house inside of NSW but having their cattle, or whatever over the border and in another state. Of course we have other problems as well relating to Covid and we are far from fixing them, I'm just as worried about the world economy now as much as this virus.

 

[Lienking]

Tell you what, put my mind at ease and list all the new trade deals we have in place for when we lose all those with the EU or negotiated through them.

I don't need to list anything. If we use WTO we use WTO. I'm quite prepared to wait and see though. As I've said before, we import far more from the EU than we export, so I'm prepared to wait and see what happens on trade and employment. Employment was still on the increase pre-covid, despite what we were told about the vote itself causing unemployment. Presumably we would have had to pay £70 or £80 billion to the EU for their covid bailout fund too. Hopefully our government will make use of the flexibility we have outside the EU to stop covid hitting our economy in the longer term.

Rather ironic that Holland is talking about introducing an "exit tax" to try and stop a company leaving and coming over here.

 

[Old Red Fart]

I read some of the Just William stories as a kid. I'm familiar with Violet Elizabeth Bott.

And I felt sure that I was the only one on here that would know about Just William.
That's wrecked my evening !

 

[Strett]

Tell you what, put my mind at ease and list all the new trade deals we have in place for when we lose all those with the EU or negotiated through them.

Agreements with the following countries and trading blocs will take effect when the UK leaves the EU:

Andean countries
CARIFORUM trade bloc
Central America
Chile
Eastern and Southern Africa (ESA) trade bloc
Faroe Islands
Georgia
Iceland and Norway
Israel
Jordan
Kosovo
Lebanon
Liechtenstein
Morocco
Pacific states
Palestinian Authority (That'll please a few)
Southern Africa Customs Union and Mozambique (SACUM) trade bloc
South Korea
Switzerland
Tunisia

Mutual recognition agreements:

(A mutual recognition agreement is one in which countries recognise one another’s conformity assessments. When conformity assessments are applied to products, they are tested to an established performance standard. Inspections, quality management, surveillance, accreditation and declarations of conformity also take place.)

Australia, New Zealand and United States have signed mutual recognition agreements.

Discussions with Japan on a UK-Japan MRA are ongoing. The UK and Japan have signed an exchange of letters designed to ensure the continuity of existing arrangements as a temporary measure.

 

[Strett]

I'm just wondering why you needed to add "probably" here? It introduces unnecessary doubt and conveys the idea that you are only reluctantly conceding the point.

There has been so much mask scepticism, why do we think masks even exist?

There's so much madness being thrust upon people by governments, it's no wonder people are cynical. Here are a few...

No smoking on the street in Spain.
Brazil’s aircraft pillow ban.
Cambodia’s ‘death deposit’ (hand over $3000 deposit when you enter the country)
Mandatory rubber gloves in Russia and Ukraine
South Africa’s closed toe shoe rules
NZ residents charged for their quarantine.

It's all a bit silly.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

Agreements with the following countries and trading blocs will take effect when the UK leaves the EU:

Andean countries
CARIFORUM trade bloc
Central America
Chile
Eastern and Southern Africa (ESA) trade bloc
Faroe Islands
Georgia
Iceland and Norway
Israel
Jordan
Kosovo
Lebanon
Liechtenstein
Morocco
Pacific states
Palestinian Authority (That'll please a few)
Southern Africa Customs Union and Mozambique (SACUM) trade bloc
South Korea
Switzerland
Tunisia

Mutual recognition agreements:

(A mutual recognition agreement is one in which countries recognise one another’s conformity assessments. When conformity assessments are applied to products, they are tested to an established performance standard. Inspections, quality management, surveillance, accreditation and declarations of conformity also take place.)

Australia, New Zealand and United States have signed mutual recognition agreements.

Discussions with Japan on a UK-Japan MRA are ongoing. The UK and Japan have signed an exchange of letters designed to ensure the continuity of existing arrangements as a temporary measure.

Thanks for explaining what a MRA is lol genuinely don't know if you're obfuscating or don't understand the distinction.

So the short answer is none.

The long answer is a MRA is not a trade deal, it merely deals with one aspect of regulatory barriers – those created by duplication of testing and certification. It also is extremely limited by sector, for instance it's virtually impossible in the petrochemical or pharmaceutical sectors.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

I don't need to list anything. If we use WTO we use WTO. I'm quite prepared to wait and see though. As I've said before, we import far more from the EU than we export, so I'm prepared to wait and see what happens on trade and employment. Employment was still on the increase pre-covid, despite what we were told about the vote itself causing unemployment. Presumably we would have had to pay £70 or £80 billion to the EU for their covid bailout fund too. Hopefully our government will make use of the flexibility we have outside the EU to stop covid hitting our economy in the longer term.

Rather ironic that Holland is talking about introducing an "exit tax" to try and stop a company leaving and coming over here.

By don't need to you mean can't lol