Bad news for Buddha & travellers in general

[Buddha]

Sadly he won't see this but I am aware that Catholics abuse children too (in their case I believe that they can do what they want, as long as they repent their sins??). That was a long time ago, though, on a much smaller scale (in this country at least), and the Catholic church has made efforts to stop the abuse, but it is similar all the same.

The problem is that there are 2 different arguments to defend the individuals. Firstly, it has nothing to do with religion and they are only just-happen-to-be's that happen to have access to vulnerable children, and the second argument (often from the same people!) is that other religions also do the same!?!

This just goes round and round and round, like an American stuck on the magic roundabout!

Why can't you understand this, 3x6, it really is very simple.

We all agree with you that what happened in Rotherham was truly sickening. We all agree that child abuse is a heinous crime. Innocent and vulnerable young people having their innocence taken from them and their lives all but destroyed. There is no argument about any of that.

Where there seems to be disagreement is the point about who is responsible for the child abuse.

On the one hand we have you and val, both of you repeatedly blaming it all on Islam.

What others have been trying to explain is that:
1. The majority of Muslim men are not child abusers.
2. Islam is not the only religion that has adherents who are child abusers.
and
3. Child abusers are not always adherents to any particular religion, sometimes they are secular.

Think about the abuse of young boys at football clubs. There have been several shocking revelations about this in the past couple of years. It wasn't anything to do with Islam. It wasn't anything to do with religion whatsoever. It was more to with opportunity.

Your position that Islam is to blame is crazy. It would be like saying that football is to blame for the child abusing football coaches!

Why can't we just agree all agree that child abuse is wholly wrong, and that wherever it is happening it must be stopped. Those who carry out the abuse must be severely punished. More importantly, they must never be given the opportunity to carry out their abuse. Our children must be kept safe from these monsters

 

[ThreeSixes]

This just goes round and round and round, like an American stuck on the magic roundabout!

Why can't you understand this, 3x6, it really is very simple.

We all agree with you that what happened in Rotherham was truly sickening. We all agree that child abuse is a heinous crime. Innocent and vulnerable young people having their innocence taken from them and their lives all but destroyed. There is no argument about any of that.

Where there seems to be disagreement is the point about who is responsible for the child abuse.

On the one hand we have you and val, both of you repeatedly blaming it all on Islam.

What others have been trying to explain is that:
1. The majority of Muslim men are not child abusers.
2. Islam is not the only religion that has adherents who are child abusers.
and
3. Child abusers are not always adherents to any particular religion, sometimes they are secular.

Think about the abuse of young boys at football clubs. There have been several shocking revelations about this in the past couple of years. It wasn't anything to do with Islam. It wasn't anything to do with religion whatsoever. It was more to with opportunity.

Your position that Islam is to blame is crazy. It would be like saying that football is to blame for the child abusing football coaches!

Why can't we just agree all agree that child abuse is wholly wrong, and that wherever it is happening it must be stopped. Those who carry out the abuse must be severely punished. More importantly, they must never be given the opportunity to carry out their abuse. Our children must be kept safe from these monsters

I don't agree with much of that. They aren't "child abusers" or "monsters" they are Muslims. They are having sex with non-Muslims that have reached puberty to keep their own women pure. Thats what happens in Pakistan and Afghanistan etc

Equating Islam to football is nonsense. It is only Muslims that are in these grooming gangs (15+ of them and rising). If there was a link between football and abuse, there wouldn't be abusers in swimming, athletics, gymnastics etc, would there?

Can I ask you a question? Imagine you were 35 again (I don't know how old you are) and you were seeing a 13 year old girl who was"up for it". How many men that you know could you get to have sex with her? None? 1 or 2? 5? I can't imagine anyone reading this is thinking 30 or 100 are they?

 

[Buddha]

I don't agree with much of that. They aren't "child abusers" or "monsters" they are Muslims. They are having sex with non-Muslims that have reached puberty to keep their own women pure. Thats what happens in Pakistan and Afghanistan etc

Equating Islam to football is nonsense. It is only Muslims that are in these grooming gangs (15+ of them and rising). If there was a link between football and abuse, there wouldn't be abusers in swimming, athletics, gymnastics etc, would there?

Can I ask you a question? Imagine you were 35 again (I don't know how old you are) and you were seeing a 13 year old girl who was"up for it". How many men that you know could you get to have sex with her? None? 1 or 2? 5? I can't imagine anyone reading this is thinking 30 or 100 are they?

I will get back to you about this. Want to give you a proper answer but not gonna have time tonight.

 

[ThreeSixes]

I will get back to you about this. Want to give you a proper answer but not gonna have time tonight.

Ok, but do some research first!

 

[chris who]

Luckily for us, Instow is a bit off the radar although we have a stunning beach and fantastic views.
It does get busy as you’d expect but nothing like Saunton, Woolacombe and Croyde.
Woolacombe last week was again in total gridlock.
We moved to Croyde first but found it took busy in summer and too quiet in winter.
Instow is about right for us.
The major downside is a bit remote for travel.
It’s about 50 minutes just to get to the motorway and of course no decent football.
Fortunately for me, Cheltenham got promoted so that’s one for me.
I have a cousin who lives there and works at GCHQ after leaving military intelligence.
Haven’t seen him for some years so will be great to catch up and chat.

Instow sounds a bit like it should be in Suffolk or Norfolk there is a Stow anyway and of course Stowmarket.

 

[chris who]

I don't agree with much of that. They aren't "child abusers" or "monsters" they are Muslims. They are having sex with non-Muslims that have reached puberty to keep their own women pure. Thats what happens in Pakistan and Afghanistan etc

Equating Islam to football is nonsense. It is only Muslims that are in these grooming gangs (15+ of them and rising). If there was a link between football and abuse, there wouldn't be abusers in swimming, athletics, gymnastics etc, would there?

Can I ask you a question? Imagine you were 35 again (I don't know how old you are) and you were seeing a 13 year old girl who was"up for it". How many men that you know could you get to have sex with her? None? 1 or 2? 5? I can't imagine anyone reading this is thinking 30 or 100 are they?

It was English and Europeans who took the slaves out of Africa.Some slaves were brought to England. So blame your ancestors. We f#@€ up Africa big time .English Americans and Europeans killed more people in the last few hundred years than every other race put together. We are a race descended from slave traders rapist and Murderers. In India ,Africa, Ireland.The native Americans. The native South Americans. Today we have many many white Rapist and Murderers child attackers etc.Criminals come from all countries of the world. They say that most murderers know their victims and a lot of rapes are close to home too.A massive amount appears to have happened at public schools etc .I could be wrong but I don't think that many Muslims went there .If you want to highlight the problems in the world fine .But let's remember some of our ancestors were worse.

 

[valenciagill]

It was English and Europeans who took the slaves out of Africa.Some slaves were brought to England. So blame your ancestors. We f#@€ up Africa big time .English Americans and Europeans killed more people in the last few hundred years than every other race put together. We are a race descended from slave traders rapist and Murderers. In India ,Africa, Ireland.The native Americans. The native South Americans. Today we have many many white Rapist and Murderers child attackers etc.Criminals come from all countries of the world. They say that most murderers know their victims and a lot of rapes are close to home too.A massive amount appears to have happened at public schools etc .I could be wrong but I don't think that many Muslims went there .If you want to highlight the problems in the world fine .But let's remember some of our ancestors were worse.

Plenty of deflection and 'whataboutry' there.
Maybe it's this attitude that has allowed this community to get away with it so long ?

 

[chris who]

Plenty of deflection and 'whataboutry' there.
Maybe it's this attitude that has allowed this community to get away with it so long ?

You are blaming a group of people.How would you like it if you were blamed for a crime that someone who looked like you did? If there was a murder or rape by a English person in your home town. Would you want to have the fingers pointing at you after all we are all the same?

 

[jokerman]

You are blaming a group of people.How would you like it if you were blamed for a crime that someone who looked like you did? If there was a murder or rape by a English person in your home town. Would you want to have the fingers pointing at you after all we are all the same?

I’d feel guiltier if I knew the Chinese were agonizing over 2000 years of imperial expansion and if the Arab world was agonizing over how they changed the African slave trade from a local craft industry to an intercontinental business. No one else goes through this sort of self-examination, and to act as if all the world’s sins are on our shoulders is just another expression of the sin of pride. In the sweep of history, we’re just not that big of a deal.

 

[valenciagill]

You are blaming a group of people.How would you like it if you were blamed for a crime that someone who looked like you did? If there was a murder or rape by a English person in your home town. Would you want to have the fingers pointing at you after all we are all the same?

A good effort , but I'm not saying that , nor have I ever blamed ALL muslims for ALL the sins that Islam promotes.
The issue is the religion , not the people who choose to believe such sexist nonsense.
That is not the same as ignoring the facts.

 

[ThreeSixes]

A good effort , but I'm not saying that , nor have I ever blamed ALL muslims for ALL the sins that Islam promotes.
The issue is the religion , not the people who choose to believe such sexist nonsense.
That is not the same as ignoring the facts.

I was going to respond to ChrisWho, but all I would have said is this so I won't bother. I wasn't making comment, just saying what the facts are - I have Muslim friends and I can't imagine that any one of them would treat girls like a commodity, but it does happen unfortunately, and it is nonsense to suggest that Muslim grooming gangs aren't influenced by Islam.

 

[ThreeSixes]

I’d feel guiltier if I knew the Chinese were agonizing over 2000 years of imperial expansion and if the Arab world was agonizing over how they changed the African slave trade from a local craft industry to an intercontinental business. No one else goes through this sort of self-examination, and to act as if all the world’s sins are on our shoulders is just another expression of the sin of pride. In the sweep of history, we’re just not that big of a deal.

Yep. I feel ZERO guilt for slavery that occured 7;generations ago, or for the murder of an individual 4,000 miles away.

 

[Gills 58]

This just goes round and round and round, like an American stuck on the magic roundabout!

Why can't you understand this, 3x6, it really is very simple.

We all agree with you that what happened in Rotherham was truly sickening. We all agree that child abuse is a heinous crime. Innocent and vulnerable young people having their innocence taken from them and their lives all but destroyed. There is no argument about any of that.

Where there seems to be disagreement is the point about who is responsible for the child abuse.

On the one hand we have you and val, both of you repeatedly blaming it all on Islam.

What others have been trying to explain is that:
1. The majority of Muslim men are not child abusers.
2. Islam is not the only religion that has adherents who are child abusers.
and
3. Child abusers are not always adherents to any particular religion, sometimes they are secular.

Think about the abuse of young boys at football clubs. There have been several shocking revelations about this in the past couple of years. It wasn't anything to do with Islam. It wasn't anything to do with religion whatsoever. It was more to with opportunity.

Your position that Islam is to blame is crazy. It would be like saying that football is to blame for the child abusing football coaches!

Why can't we just agree all agree that child abuse is very wrong, and that wherever it is happening it must be stop. Those who carry out the abuse must be severely punished. More importantly, they must never be given the opportunity to carry out their abuse. Our children must be kept safe from these monsters.

You are wasting your time Buddha.

As it happens, I've just been listening to a programme on R4 about astonishing levels of abuse over many years by the Catholic Church in Canada. Really shocking treatment of indigenous peoples and the uncovering of a mass grave at an institution for children who'd been forcibly removed from their parents. Horrendous abuse of the children there.

Of course, 3x6 will not link this to Catholics/Christians being prone to paedophilia or physical and mental cruelty. He does somehow match it when it comes to Muslims. I gave up on debating it with him long ago.

 

[ThreeSixes]

Of course, 3x6 will not link this to Catholics/Christians being prone to paedophilia or physical and mental cruelty.

I will. In this case, there also appears to be a clear link between (another) religion and paedophilia. That contradicts Buddha's "no link" argument though.

Yet another anti-Catholic post from this poster - now blocked

 

[chris who]

I’d feel guiltier if I knew the Chinese were agonizing over 2000 years of imperial expansion and if the Arab world was agonizing over how they changed the African slave trade from a local craft industry to an intercontinental business. No one else goes through this sort of self-examination, and to act as if all the world’s sins are on our shoulders is just another expression of the sin of pride. In the sweep of history, we’re just not that big of a deal.

My statement shows how wrong it is to make sweeping statements about beliefs in a religion or country there are good and bad everywhere.Evil people are not exclusive race,colour or religious organisation.

 

[Buddha]

Can I ask you a question? Imagine you were 35 again (I don't know how old you are) and you were seeing a 13 year old girl who was"up for it". How many men that you know could you get to have sex with her? None? 1 or 2? 5? I can't imagine anyone reading this is thinking 30 or 100 are they?

Ok, but do some research first!

Not quite sure what research you want or expect me to do to answer the questo you have asked me. So I'm not gonna bother with the research, I'm just gonna answer based upon what I know and what I think. Hope that's ok with you.

Ok, so I'm imagining i''m 35 again. First important thing to mention is that by the age of 35 I had become a father. Prior to be a father I would still have found the idea of any adult man having sex with a 13 year old child as an indefensible form of abuse. Becoming a father didn't change my opinion about this, it merely heightened my sense of outrage when any child is abused.

How many men do I know (or did I know when I was 35) who would have abused a 13 year old girl? The answer to that is that I knew none. This doesn't mean that none of the men I knew didn't or wouldn't, it just means that nobody I knew would openly admit that they would carry out such abuse if given the opportunity.

I know that I wouldn't. I know that when I was in my early 30s I had a brief (a few weeks) sexual relationship with a woman who was 20. It was all completely consensual and the sex was good. She was a fully grown, independent woman and I was by no means her first sexual partner. And she was a really nice person. I wasn't abusing her, I wasn't committing any crime. Nevertheless, i still didn't feel quite right about it. She seemed too young for me and the more we talked the more I felt this. I decided that I mustn't let things go too far. I definitely didn't want her to, "fall for me". I explained my feelings to her and ended the relationship. I made a conscious decision there and then that I wouldn't ever have sex again with any woman under the age of 25.

I'd like to think that all of my friends would be equally appalled by the idea of having sex with a 13 year old child. In reality it probably isn't all but more like the overwhelming majority.

Just recently it came to light that a man in our community (who must now be in his 40s) took advantage of a 15 year old girl in our community. The man in question was never a good friend of mine but I did consio him to be a 'mate', though I've not personally seen him for many years. The girl in question is the daughter of an old friend of mine. It all happened a couple of years ago but had only recently come to light. The girl was physically mature and, in your terminology, was almost certainly, "up for it".

What happened was clearly abuse. The man took advantage of a child and it was completely wrong and cannot be excused or defended. I want nothing more to do with him and hope I never have to see him again. He has been completely ostracised by the community - word is out and he's not welcome on any sites or at any of our parties. I'm not sure if the police have been involved or not. In a way I hope that they have been, but if they haven't I would also be able to understand the reasoning behind that.

It is all very depressing and it makes me feel sick even thinking about it. Especially since I have known the victim since she was 3 or 4 years old. I just hope and pray it doesn't really fuck her up. It may do but hopefully it will not.

I'm not sure if that answers your question or not but there you go.

 

[Buddha]

You are wasting your time Buddha.

As it happens, I've just been listening to a programme on R4 about astonishing levels of abuse over many years by the Catholic Church in Canada. Really shocking treatment of indigenous peoples and the uncovering of a mass grave at an institution for children who'd been forcibly removed from their parents. Horrendous abuse of the children there.

Of course, 3x6 will not link this to Catholics/Christians being prone to paedophilia or physical and mental cruelty. He does somehow match it when it comes to Muslims. I gave up on debating it with him long ago.

I heard that programme too.

With regard to arguing with 3x6, I think you're probably correct. It is akin to banging your head against a wall. Over and over and over again.

There must be something masochistic about me as there is claret everywhere and my skull has caved in!

 

[chris who]

I've known three White English girls who were abused by their fathers one I didn't know that well so I am not sure what happened to him or her.The other two men were very upright members of their community. Both a dead now.It totally destroyed one of the girls she will never recover unfortunately.Perhaps partly because of the high standing in society of these two men they got away with it .While they were of this world. Evil comes in all levels of society.Fortunately they are a tiny minority. Unfortunately many girls do not want to consider confronting their fathers.

 

[ThreeSixes]

I'm not sure if that answers your question or not but there you go.

Thanks, I did read all of your post. Your posts are much too long, they should be a third of that length. You are the Zach Snyder of the forum.

My question about how many friends or acquaintances do you think would have sex with a 13 year old girl was supposed to demonstrate that 30+ from one local community would be a lot. It seems a lot to me. I don't think they can just be "bad men" that happen to live in the same town. It wasn't supposed to be an invitation for you to talk about yourself again!

The research I referred to was just about what is happening in the world and this country. Read a newspaper or website, and visit a city and look around. I don't see how you can build knowledge living in a caravan and reading anarchist websites? (I'm not looking for a response)

I think that's it for a bit for me. I feel I keep getting dragged into these conversations, having to defend myself against things I haven't said, or believe. I know I shouldn't keep biting.

 

[Buddha]

I think that's it for a bit for me.

This is quite possibly the most sensible thing you've ever written on here.

I am quite certain that I am not alone in hoping you're as good as your word.