Bad news for Buddha & travellers in general | Page 25 | Vital Football

Bad news for Buddha & travellers in general

Buddha said:
Indeed. Which is why it is best to read a broad range of sources and then use your own experience and powers of analysis to come to a conclusion. Or not, even.
Click to expand...

It's difficult to reach a conclusion reading two articles that are diametrically opposed. Maybe there are serious issues, yet they are being exaggerated?
I can't speak for Blackburn , but Bolton is very much segregated. I lived there 30 odd years ago , and there were issues back then.
I can't imagine things have improved.
 
valenciagill said:
It's difficult to reach a conclusion reading two articles that are diametrically opposed.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you about that.

As you said in your previous post, "the truth is in there somewhere", although I'd probably have said, "there is some truth in there somewhere"1.

I suppose that one thing you can (usually) glean from reading two diametrically opposed articles is that they cannot both be correct. This doesn't though, necessarily mean that one of them is.

Personal experience is a good but not perfect indicator of something. I have some friends who live very close to Bolton, I'll ask them what their experiences are?
 
Buddha said:
Personal experience is a good but not perfect indicator of something. I have some friends who live very close to Bolton, I'll ask them what their experiences are?
Click to expand...

i messaged one of my mates and asked if he could give me his personal experience of Bolton and the Asian and Muslim communities. I asked if it was true about no-go areas and virtual Sharia law. I told him I was discussing this with a right-wing bloke who believes there are no-go areas.

Here's his response:

"I go to Bolton all the time. I've never felt intimidated. Perhaps he's just soft?!"

i sent back a message asking if there are any places in Bolton that he couldn't go. He"s replied that he'll ask about. I'll let you know if/when he gets back to me about that...
 
It reminds me a bit of what I said earlier. Personal experiences are important but the in-group culture can sometimes give a myopic view depending who you surround yourself with. I voted BNP while working in the factory in Gillingham.

Many people from Medway call it a shithole but casual/infrequent visitors often leave with a better opinion (unless they restrict it to the walk between Gills station and the stadium, and the only places they spend time in is the BMS and the Southern Belle).
 
Trev_GFC said:
It reminds me a bit of what I said earlier. Personal experiences are important but the in-group culture can sometimes give a myopic view depending who you surround yourself with. I voted BNP while working in the factory in Gillingham.

Many people from Medway call it a shithole but casual/infrequent visitors often leave with a better opinion (unless they restrict it to the walk between Gills station and the stadium, and the only places they spend time in is the BMS and the Southern Belle).
Click to expand...
.
Trev, don't feel too bad about having voted BNP. At least (I hope and trust) you wouldn't vote far-right again.

There are lots of former fascists who have seen the error of their ways and gone on to embrace anti-fascism and/or anarchism.

Conversely, there are very few anarchists and/or anti-fascists who suddenly have a crisis of conscience and lurch to the right!
 
Buddha said:
.
Trev, don't feel too bad about having voted BNP. At least (I hope and trust) you wouldn't vote far-right again.

There are lots of former fascists who have seen the error of their ways and gone on to embrace anti-fascism and/or anarchism.

Conversely, there are very few anarchists and/or anti-fascists who suddenly have a crisis of conscience and lurch to the right!
Click to expand...

Many also who went away from supporting the soviet union and Mao and Blair and Thatcher and the two partys in the USA, lol.
Its healthy when minds are changed when they gain extra data.
 
jokerman said:
I’d feel guiltier if I knew the Chinese were agonizing over 2000 years of imperial expansion and if the Arab world was agonizing over how they changed the African slave trade from a local craft industry to an intercontinental business. No one else goes through this sort of self-examination, and to act as if all the world’s sins are on our shoulders is just another expression of the sin of pride. In the sweep of history, we’re just not that big of a deal.
Click to expand...

Not sure about the chinese as they have rarely moved outside of the area they inhabit now. More info welcome.

The Atlantic trade is interesting. Africans captured and enslaved 25 million people and sold them to European traders, are they innocent?

Every race on earth has taken slaves, raped and murdered others for over 40,000. Its what we humans do.

In the uk our people have been taken into slavery by tribes and invaders and in fact lived in serfdom

I think this was chris's point, its a human thing.
 
Interesting discussion on under age sex issues.

For over 40,000 years sex and marriage with what we consider under age girls was the norm and legal.
For only around 100 of those 40,000 years was it illegal in most of europe. I think it is still legal in most usa states.

The age of consent was only changed from 13 to 16 in victorian times as child prostitution was absolutely rife so obviously plenty of indigenous men involved.


Nothing to do with right or wrong, more to do with attitudes in the times you were born.
 
Jerryattrick said:
Interesting discussion on under age sex issues.

For over 40,000 years sex and marriage with what we consider under age girls was the norm and legal.
For only around 100 of those 40,000 years was it illegal in most of europe. I think it is still legal in most usa states.

The age of consent was only changed from 13 to 16 in victorian times as child prostitution was absolutely rife so obviously plenty of indigenous men involved.



Nothing to do with right or wrong, more to do with attitudes in the times you were born.
Click to expand...

It's a lot to do with attitudes of the time, what society deems acceptable or unacceptable at any given time.But some prevailing attitudes need to be examined and sometimes changed or dispensed with.

I do take your point about an arbitrary age of consent and this can and does fluctuate across the world and across history.

But it's not really about a number or an age, is it? Rather it is about adults (usually men but not always) abusing children. Just because it might have been deemed acceptable in the past doesn't stop it from being wrong.

Attitudes to lots of things such as women's rights and gay rights have been changed. Albeit often a slow process.

A hundred years or so ago women didn't have the vote, a gay man was a criminal and there was no concept of the,' teen-ager'.

I'd say that there had been some progress but there's still a long way to go. Maybe years ago our kids didn't have such a long childhood - and certainly in some parts of the world they still don't - but it is important that they are protected from predatory adults who, I reckon anyway, are doing very wrong when they engage in sexual activities with a child. Even if the child thinks that they are consenting they cannot be simply because they are a. child. It is abuse. And the abusers know it is abuse. They know it is wrong. And if they don't they are mentally ill
 
Buddha said:
.
Trev, don't feel too bad about having voted BNP. At least (I hope and trust) you wouldn't vote far-right again.

There are lots of former fascists who have seen the error of their ways and gone on to embrace anti-fascism and/or anarchism.

Conversely, there are very few anarchists and/or anti-fascists who suddenly have a crisis of conscience and lurch to the right!
Click to expand...
Looking in from the outside .... there appears very little difference between a genuine fascist and an anti-fascist.
They are all thuggish, authoritarian bullies.
(and neither should be called "right wing")
 
O
Jerryattrick said:
Not sure about the chinese as they have rarely moved outside of the area they inhabit now. More info welcome.

The Atlantic trade is interesting. Africans captured and enslaved 25 million people and sold them to European traders, are they innocent?

Every race on earth has taken slaves, raped and murdered others for over 40,000. Its what we humans do.

In the uk our people have been taken into slavery by tribes and invaders and in fact lived in serfdom

I think this was chris's point, its a human thing.
Click to expand...

OK 4000 years! That allows for the expansion between and beyond the two rivers. The Chinese make much of the more-or-less settled boundaries by the time of the Han dynasty -200 BC to 200 AD (like yesterday for them, of course).
But I'd add
the Han people versus the rest -this continues
the whole suzerain tribute system (SE Asia, Korea, Japan, Mongolia and elsewhere) with varying degrees of control -light in terms of traditional empire, heavy in terms of cultural penetration and expectations
the mid 18th century expansion into Tibet and Sinkiang/Xinjiang, the consequences of which we see today
and you could throw in the Mongol/Yuan dynasty high jinks too

I see the push for the inner island chain (Taiwan etc. plus Hong Kong) as defensive expansion -reasonable but for the human rights/self determination implications.

I see the nine dash claim in the South China Sea as flat out expansionist.
 
jokerman said:
O


OK 4000 years! That allows for the expansion between and beyond the two rivers. The Chinese make much of the more-or-less settled boundaries by the time of the Han dynasty -200 BC to 200 AD (like yesterday for them, of course).
But I'd add
the Han people versus the rest -this continues
the whole suzerain tribute system (SE Asia, Korea, Japan, Mongolia and elsewhere) with varying degrees of control -light in terms of traditional empire, heavy in terms of cultural penetration and expectations
the mid 18th century expansion into Tibet and Sinkiang/Xinjiang, the consequences of which we see today
and you could throw in the Mongol/Yuan dynasty high jinks too

I see the push for the inner island chain (Taiwan etc. plus Hong Kong) as defensive expansion -reasonable but for the human rights/self determination implications.

I see the nine dash claim in the South China Sea as flat out expansionist.
Click to expand...

agree in general with most of that. As you say japan was very much cultural influence.
 
Buddha said:
It's a lot to do with attitudes of the time, what society deems acceptable or unacceptable at any given time.But some prevailing attitudes need to be examined and sometimes changed or dispensed with.

I do take your point about an arbitrary age of consent and this can and does fluctuate across the world and across history.

But it's not really about a number or an age, is it? Rather it is about adults (usually men but not always) abusing children. Just because it might have been deemed acceptable in the past doesn't stop it from being wrong.

Attitudes to lots of things such as women's rights and gay rights have been changed. Albeit often a slow process.

A hundred years or so ago women didn't have the vote, a gay man was a criminal and there was no concept of the,' teen-ager'.

I'd say that there had been some progress but there's still a long way to go. Maybe years ago our kids didn't have such a long childhood - and certainly in some parts of the world they still don't - but it is important that they are protected from predatory adults who, I reckon anyway, are doing very wrong when they engage in sexual activities with a child. Even if the child thinks that they are consenting they cannot be simply because they are a. child. It is abuse. And the abusers know it is abuse. They know it is wrong. And if they don't they are mentally ill
Click to expand...

Point was that this is a long standing situation in all societies and the question of 'how many people do you know' would be different at any time in history.
Therefore we need to go after all people carrying out and/or covering up offences irrespective of their background or position of power. Especially not use it as a divisive political argument.

We need an enquiry with teeth to sort this out.
 
jokerman said:
Whatever point I was trying to make, Chris, my reply to you was crabby and argumentative. Apologies.
Click to expand...

chris who said:
No need mate no apology necessary in my book you have never upset me that I can remember.
Click to expand...

Boo! You two are boring, I thought you were gonna have a row!! Would have been the most unexpected of bouts, and it could have been spectacular. You pair of boring old gits!

Only joking. Obviously.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.