What should replace the Colston statue in Bristol?

[Jerryattrick]

Ok, let's have a memorial to Harold Shipman as many of his patients thought highly of him. Only fascists would want to pull it down, eh Jerry?

Nobby has answered better than I could below.
the point has nothing to do with odd examples but setting a precedent with the same argument and complications of free speech. Do you agree with having to sometimes let someone speak no matter how much you disagree with them or want to punch them or ban them?

this is the same principle and complications. Today the thought police fascists do one thing but tomorrow it could be your enemies (or a dictatorships) thought police fascists doing the same to you. Remember the old ‘first they came for me’ etc.

the fact is that a group of self appointed truth police are telling us what to think (even if we agree with it) and people are supporting it because it is suiting their gang or shamed into silence. I am more interested in the
halting of the movement to a totalitarian state where you are told or shamed into thinking what you are told.

 

[valenciagill]

another one adding their diversion to their enemies

Islam and slavery cannot be separated , the Barbary slave trade / Arab slave trade being the largest in the known world.

 

[Jerryattrick]

Islam and slavery cannot be separated , the Barbary slave trade / Arab slave trade being the largest in the known world.

most people cannot handle the one slave trade on this thread so let’s stick to that one it just confuses us otherwise lol.

 

[Buddha]

If the protesters in Bristol had their way, there would be swathes of rabid activists tearing down statues and memorials all over the place. Thats not the way a civilised society works.

I'm not sure that's true, nobby. I don't think it's a case of a mob tearing down statues and memorials all over the place. That's not about to start happening and the Colston statue coming down in now way suggests it might be!

The Floyd murder was the spark that lit the fire and it was initially all about police brutality against the black community in the states. But the fire has spread and this is now an international movement and the issue is racism in general.

And it was this current climate and the fact that it was a long-hated statue. It was a particular statue at a particular time. Not just loads of indiscriminate statues, any time, any place, any where. (Remember I'm not talking about temporary 'damage' like paint, I mean proper damage, or 'destruction' if you like!)

Superintendent Andy Bennett deserves much respect and praise for his policing of the whole thing. Seriously, big up the police this time, credit where credit is due and all that. I'm just really hoping that nobody is going to get charged for it, certainly hope nobody gets convicted.

Although maybe it's even worth it, those who get charged will then have their names go down in history as the heroes who finally did what the council had failed to do and pull down a piece of junk that was nothing more than a, "painful reminder to [Bristol's] black communities." If anybody gets anything more than a slap on the wrist for this I can see it leading to further protests. I know Bristol well, I know what it's like there. And so do the Bristol police. Obviously! They've handled this well so far and obviously they've got to do their job, but here's hoping that common sense continues to prevail.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/right-wing-people-came-down-4205570

 

[valenciagill]

I'm not sure that's true, nobby. I don't think it's a case of a mob tearing down statues and memorials all over the place. That's not about to start happening and the Colston statue coming down in now way suggests it might be!

The Floyd murder was the spark that lit the fire and it was initially all about police brutality against the black community in the states. But the fire has spread and this is now an international movement and the issue is racism in general.

And it was this current climate and the fact that it was a long-hated statue. It was a particular statue at a particular time. Not just loads of indiscriminate statues, any time, any place, any where. (Remember I'm not talking about temporary 'damage' like paint, I mean proper damage, or 'destruction' if you like!)

Superintendent Andy Bennett deserves much respect and praise for his policing of the whole thing. Seriously, big up the police this time, credit where credit is due and all that. I'm just really hoping that nobody is going to get charged for it, certainly hope nobody gets convicted.

Although maybe it's even worth it, those who get charged will then have their names go down in history as the heroes who finally did what the council had failed to do and pull down a piece of junk that was nothing more than a, "painful reminder to [Bristol's] black communities." If anybody gets anything more than a slap on the wrist for this I can see it leading to further protests. I know Bristol well, I know what it's like there. And so do the Bristol police. Obviously! They've handled this well so far and obviously they've got to do their job, but here's hoping that common sense continues to prevail.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/right-wing-people-came-down-4205570

That Superintendent needs disciplining , and reducing to the ranks. Failure to do his duty.

 

[Buddha]

Nobby has answered better than I could below.
the point has nothing to do with odd examples but setting a precedent with the same argument and complications of free speech. Do you agree with having to sometimes let someone speak no matter how much you disagree with them or want to punch them or ban them?

this is the same principle and complications. Today the thought police fascists do one thing but tomorrow it could be your enemies (or a dictatorships) thought police fascists doing the same to you. Remember the old ‘first they came for me’ etc.

the fact is that a group of self appointed truth police are telling us what to think (even if we agree with it) and people are supporting it because it is suiting their gang or shamed into silence. I am more interested in the
halting of the movement to a totalitarian state where you are told or shamed into thinking what you are told.

jerry, you've got a right bee in your bonnet about this one! Thing is, I completely understand where you're coming from and ordinarily would wholeheartedly agree with you.

But this was something different. It was something symbolic and it came at just the right moment with the current political climate and mood as it is. And it was better that it came from the crowd, it made the symbolism more powerful.

I think that in theory you're spot on with the thrust of your argument but you're being dogmatic with your adherence to an ideological value. In a way you're right to do stick to your principles but you also need to be flexible enough to understand that sometimes something that normally wouldn't be cool can occasionally be wholly appropriate.,

It's another one of those paradox thingys, lol.

 

[Buddha]

That Superintendent needs disciplining , and reducing to the ranks. Failure to do his duty.

Copper of the Year, I reckon. About time someone other than nobs won it!

 

[Jerryattrick]

jerry, you've got a right bee in your bonnet about this one! Thing is, I completely understand where you're coming from and ordinarily would wholeheartedly agree with you.

But this was something different. It was something symbolic and it came at just the right moment with the current political climate and mood as it is. And it was better that it came from the crowd, it made the symbolism more powerful.

I think that in theory you're spot on with the thrust of your argument but you're being dogmatic with your adherence to an ideological value. In a way you're right to do stick to your principles but you also need to be flexible enough to understand that sometimes something that normally wouldn't be cool can occasionally be wholly appropriate.,

It's another one of those paradox thingys, lol.

I know exactly where you are coming from but on this, sitting at 50,000 feet I sense danger. Evil can come from the left or right as both sides are controlled by the same players.

i am anti dictatorship and anti totalitarian but more than that I am for freedom and true equality.

sometimes we have to take a stand when you see a move towards the stifling of speech and the power of the thought police. The particular individual statue is not important it is the fact that the new thought police and mind controllers are at play in the guise of righteousness.
If this is the only act then ok but these new religion people want more as they divide the country. Already looking at more prominent statues and street names like drake, nelson, Victoria, Churchill, kings and queens. At which point will you say enough or more important who decides. A lot of these people wrote books, if they want them banned then will you stand as you will then be a reactionary or racist shamed by the new left fascists behaving like isis or nazi Germany.
I stand for the struggle for true equality for all not the rise of a divisive movement. Basically I see the masters laughing as the puppets dance in their identities.

seen it over and over. People move in and subvert the cause. Once they are tired and moved on will the cause have been improved, will anyone’s life have advanced.
If I am wrong then I am more than happy but if I am right to be worried then we are all f lol.[/QUOTE]

 

[Wayne.Kerr]

I stand for the struggle for true equality for all not the rise of a divisive movement.

By doing what exactly? Nothing I guess because in your book it's everyone else like others on here.

 

[Buddha]

So what about this, jerry?:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52977088

Is this removal ok because it has been done 'legitimately' and not by an 'angry mob'?

Do you think this would have happened right now if not for events in Bristol on Sunday?

You're so obviously an anti-racist, so why do you think that removing statues that symbolise and glorify a racist past is the actions of 'thought police'? You've been fighting racism and fascism all your life but now, at the moment that society gives an impression that it might just finally be beginning to wake up and open its eyes properly to this important issue, you recoil and criticise the very people who are standing up for what you believe in?

I understand your fears but seize the time and all that...

 

[Buddha]

I know exactly where you are coming from but on this, sitting at 50,000 feet I sense danger. Evil can come from the left or right as both sides are controlled by the same players.

i am anti dictatorship and anti totalitarian but more than that I am for freedom and true equality.

sometimes we have to take a stand when you see a move towards the stifling of speech and the power of the thought police. The particular individual statue is not important it is the fact that the new thought police and mind controllers are at play in the guise of righteousness.
If this is the only act then ok but these new religion people want more as they divide the country. Already looking at more prominent statues and street names like drake, nelson, Victoria, Churchill, kings and queens. At which point will you say enough or more important who decides. A lot of these people wrote books, if they want them banned then will you stand as you will then be a reactionary or racist shamed by the new left fascists behaving like isis or nazi Germany.
I stand for the struggle for true equality for all not the rise of a divisive movement. Basically I see the masters laughing as the puppets dance in their identities.

seen it over and over. People move in and subvert the cause. Once they are tired and moved on will the cause have been improved, will anyone’s life have advanced.
If I am wrong then I am more than happy but if I am right to be worried then we are all f lol.

We see things very similarly. I also fear and loathe totalitarianism.

But you're getting your knickers in a twist, Victoria, Churchill, Nelson et al, they're not coming down. Keep it real, man! You're getting well ahead of yourself here in some theoretical paranoia! This is about racism and statues of slave traders.

You know who the real fascists are. Don't take your eye off the ball and start denouncing those on the same side as you (i.e. the anti-racists and anti-fascists).

 

[Buddha]

And now a quick bit of statue related comic relief (a few years old but hey, never mind!):

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ng-called-fountain-of-the-future-9534076.html

 

[chris who]

Not sure the Harold Shipman or Jimmy Saville arguments are relevant as, of course, we wouldn't erect statues to them now, knowing what we now know. I would argue that a Jimmy Saville one, put up in the 70's would have been appropriate then due to his charity work. Removing it now would also be appropriate but there are ways of doing it. If the protesters in Bristol had their way, there would be swathes of rabid activists tearing down statues and memorials all over the place. Thats not the way a civilised society works.

In mild defence I would say that there was a very long justified campaign for taking the statue down.If the guy had put our ancestors in chains and carted them off to die.I think many who defend the guy would think differently.

 

[valenciagill]

Hey Bud , have you got involved yourself yet ? I'm not sure what of the country you're currently in , but it must be tempting ?

 

[Jerryattrick]

We see things very similarly. I also fear and loathe totalitarianism.

But you're getting your knickers in a twist, Victoria, Churchill, Nelson et al, they're not coming down. Keep it real, man! You're getting well ahead of yourself here in some theoretical paranoia! This is about racism and statues of slave traders.

You know who the real fascists are. Don't take your eye off the ball and start denouncing those on the same side

if they do get the call for the statues to come down then where do you stand. Any removal of books, where do you stand. If it dont happen ok then its all hunkie.

I stand shoulder to shoulder with all true active anti fascists and anti racists and I love a lot of the things that are happening as any improvement in someones daily life is fantastic. If we pick up life long anti racists then its all worth while.
I do not support identity thought police dividing identities against each other. Workers of the world unite not divide and rule.

My fear comes from history and as you know the media are revving this up and the owners of power are manipulating.

I am not annoyed at all, just handing out a warning to beware the forces of darkness (you already know all this anyway). Thats not paranoia its a prediction (which is probably wrong lol) based on political investigation and observation. History repeats itself

To be clear none of my criticism or concerns is aimed at you. I will now sit and let the merry dance begin.

 

[Buddha]

if they do get the call for the statues to come down then where do you stand. Any removal of books, where do you stand. If it dont happen ok then its all hunkie.

I stand shoulder to shoulder with all true active anti fascists and anti racists and I love a lot of the things that are happening as any improvement in someones daily life is fantastic.
I do not support identity thought police dividing identities against each other. Workers of the world unite not divide and rule.

My fear comes from history and as you know the media are revving this up and the owners of power are manipulating.

I am not annoyed at all, just handing out a warning to beware the forces of darkness (you already know all this anyway). Thats not paranoia its a prediction (which is probably wrong lol) based on political investigation and observation. History repeats itself.

None of the statues you mentioned are that important to me. You talk about workers of the world uniting but all those figures represent the dominant class. Churchill gets some, a lot of, credit for fighting Hitler and fascism but Nelson is no hero of mine and nor are any kings and queens.

Ok these people are an important part of our history and they mustn't just be written out of it. But maybe some of these statues belong in museums, not on our streets.

There's a chant at protests when the police try to take control and disperse or kettle, you probably know it, "Whose Streets? Our Streets!" Well let's have in "our streets" some statues that properly represent the 'people' and reflect what Britain stands for today, not some Imperial and/or Monarchical figures from an oppressive past. (That's not to say some historical figures don't deserve to be memorialised, of course they do, but they need to have earned that right - and if there's a debate to be had about certain figures, well bring it on, then let the people decide).

As for burning books, what do you think I think?!

 

[Jerryattrick]

By doing what exactly? Nothing I guess because in your book it's everyone else like others on here.

This is not your world just something intellectual to play with and then move on.
You don't know me and you certainly don't know if I am still active in the movement. You dont know who I have been or am working with, this is a daily struggle for us where talk is cheap - ‘a dog is not just for Xmas’.

If you want an input then state your practical realistic plans not rhetoric, the outcomes for real people are wrapped up in the impact on their daily lives changing not just over a short demonstration period.

I must be doing nothing as I always have done and what would I know in my reactionary, racist white privilege world.

 

[Jerryattrick]

None of the statues you mentioned are that important to me. You talk about workers of the world uniting but all those figures represent the dominant class. Churchill gets some, a lot of, credit for fighting Hitler and fascism but Nelson is no hero of mine and nor are any kings and queens.

Ok these people are an important part of our history and they mustn't just be written out of it. But maybe some of these statues belong in museums, not on our streets.

There's a chant at protests when the police try to take control and disperse or kettle, you probably know it, "Whose Streets? Our Streets!" Well let's have in "our streets" some statues that properly represent the 'people' and reflect what Britain stands for today, not some Imperial and/or Monarchical figures from an oppressive past. (That's not to say some historical figures don't deserve to be memorialised, of course they do, but they need to have earned that right - and if there's a debate to be had about certain figures, well bring it on, then let the people decide).

As for burning books, what do you think I think?!

None of those people are heros of mine (exact opposite) but good or bad they are our history so - Which people will decide?

Personally I dont give a shit about the statue and if in Bristol I would have organised occupation of the statue area every week for the last year at least to push the issue.

 

[Buddha]

None of those people are heros of mine but they are our history so - Which people will decide?

Which people decided upon them in the first place?

Yes, they're our history. As I said, put them in a museum. Or the harbour, lol!

 

[Buddha]

Hey Bud , have you got involved yourself yet ? I'm not sure what of the country you're currently in , but it must be tempting ?

I would have liked to have been there in Bristol on Sunday. Many Bristolians have been saying it was the best day of their lives. Reckon it would have been good to have been part of that crowd making history.

I have been tempted to "get involved" as you put it but I'm observing the social distancing and that, along with a couple of other factors, has put me off going to any of the protests. Very much an armchair anarchist at moment. Only I don't have an armchair so I'm not even that!