Super Kal | Page 6 | Vital Football

Super Kal

You may or may not be surprised MiW that I agree with almost everything you've posted there.

Personally though, my last sentence would have been...... Of course, it was massively presumptious of some Tics fans to write off the lad after just one or two brief outings, though if no improvement is forthcoming, they will likely feel themselves vindicated in their early (unwarranted or not) condemnation.

Just a thought. Just think of Dan Burn: Bambi, to Superman, and back to Bambi again.
 
I was surprised Kal was given a 3 year deal as Cook had previously stated he thought such contracts were to long.
There was an interview recently with one of our players saying Naismith was one of the characters in the changing rooms.
We all know Cook likes these types of players so perhaps that was the main reason for his signing.
But as he's down the pecking order i don't see the harm as perhaps he brings more behind the scenes.
Personally I think Leo Lopez will start ahead of Kal next Saturday.
 
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He was utter rubbish yesterday, did absolutely nothing. Nothing. His performance or lack of was an embarrassment. He hasn't done anywhere near enough in his career, especially given his age, to warrant a 3 year deal at a Championship club. It's absolutely scandalous we have wasted money on such an ineffective player. Perhaps Wigan fans are concerned about inefficient use of scarce resources and are not afraid to form and voice an opinion. Of course others just swallow the party line and think everything in the garden is fine and dandy shrouded in rose tinted fog.
I take it by "others" you are referring to me, I don't think he played particularly well and he so far has been unconvincing but to describe it as an "embarrassment" is way over the top. The embarrassment was the cock up between Walton and Kipre, which is what resulted in us loosing the game. Naismith didn't play well but to single him out and use him as a scapegoat is ridiculous.
 
Kenny, I don't think anyone is using him as a scapegoat. People are merely expressing concern about his inclusion in the team, highlighting the fact he isn't very good and questioning why he was ever signed on a lengthy deal when all the evidence prior to his signing suggested this would be the case at this level. Of course I said this when he was signed but you were one of the ones lauding his recruitment. Nothing personal but I just don't understand the rationale of the signing and no one has yet tried to provide any evidence based one so far.
 
He was utter rubbish yesterday, did absolutely nothing. Nothing. His performance or lack of was an embarrassment. He hasn't done anywhere near enough in his career, especially given his age, to warrant a 3 year deal at a Championship club. It's absolutely scandalous we have wasted money on such an ineffective player. Perhaps Wigan fans are concerned about inefficient use of scarce resources and are not afraid to form and voice an opinion. Of course others just swallow the party line and think everything in the garden is fine and dandy shrouded in rose tinted fog.

Is anyone saying he wasn't rubbish against Leeds? Were many people saying he was ever a top signing at any point? So who's wearing rose tinted glasses and what is the party line? I think it's pretty unnanerous to be honest he wasn't a exciting signing and that so far he's been poor. No one needs a 'i told you so' as no one was arguing he was going to be a star, just arguing to give him a chance to fail before we wrote him off.

We've signed players who looked bad on paper in the past who suprised us and players who looked good on paper who floundered - a manager makes these choices and sometimes he's right and some times he's wrong - but you have trust the managers judgement. Naismith was absolutely in the category of bad on paper - but so were the likes of Perkins and Burn before they went on to be player of the season. Naismith is unfortunately looking like he's not going to be like Perks or Burn and turn out to be positive suprise - but are you advocating we shouldn't have signed a players the manager specifically asks for? As quite frankly we know that Cook would've been the one pushing for it rather than the recruitment team.

If went into David Shape last summer and said 'Naismith is free, cheap and i think he'll be a good signing' do you tell him 'no' after all he had done and there was speculation about him being sought by other clubs? Or do you back him and get the player he asks for - hoping he will be right?

Quite frankly any club has 2 choices with any manager; you trust him or you don't. We all know managers can get very upset if they feel that they are being undermined, over ruled or interfered with. Unfortunately it appears Cooks judgement has been wrong but we were absolutely right to give Cook what he wanted, no matter how sceptical anyone might have been.

I think Yon Mons suggestion about him being one of Cooks 'behind the scenes' lads is an interesting theory and could have something in it.
 
Is anyone saying he wasn't rubbish against Leeds? Were many people saying he was ever a top signing at any point? So who's wearing rose tinted glasses and what is the party line? I think it's pretty unnanerous to be honest he wasn't a exciting signing and that so far he's been poor. No one needs a 'i told you so' as no one was arguing he was going to be a star, just arguing to give him a chance to fail before we wrote him off.

We've signed players who looked bad on paper in the past who suprised us and players who looked good on paper who floundered - a manager makes these choices and sometimes he's right and some times he's wrong - but you have trust the managers judgement. Naismith was absolutely in the category of bad on paper - but so were the likes of Perkins and Burn before they went on to be player of the season. Naismith is unfortunately looking like he's not going to be like Perks or Burn and turn out to be positive suprise - but are you advocating we shouldn't have signed a players the manager specifically asks for? As quite frankly we know that Cook would've been the one pushing for it rather than the recruitment team.

If went into David Shape last summer and said 'Naismith is free, cheap and i think he'll be a good signing' do you tell him 'no' after all he had done and there was speculation about him being sought by other clubs? Or do you back him and get the player he asks for - hoping he will be right?

Quite frankly any club has 2 choices with any manager; you trust him or you don't. We all know managers can get very upset if they feel that they are being undermined, over ruled or interfered with. Unfortunately it appears Cooks judgement has been wrong but we were absolutely right to give Cook what he wanted, no matter how sceptical anyone might have been.

I think Yon Mons suggestion about him being one of Cooks 'behind the scenes' lads is an interesting theory and could have something in it.

The difference with Burn and Perkins were that they had played at or higher than the current level we were at. Not so much of a gamble though perhaps uninspiring signings. Most teams at this level now have specific recruitment teams and use all sort of data on players before deciding to buy. Interestingly no other club at this level of football had expressed an interest in him because basically he isn't good enough. Backing a manager is one thing but sometimes bosses just can't acquiesce all the time to keep someone happy when everything suggests it's the wrong decision. If due diligence was done then there's no doubt it wouldn't have been justified to offer a player at his level and his age a 3 year deal. Hopefully with a new structure this sort of decision making on signings will improve as our revolving door policy tells us it hasn't been right for some years. If he has been signed to be the team joker regardless of ability then that's a pretty poor reason. Blindly supporting the clubs decisions when the evidence suggests they're wrong is just as bad as the poor decision in the first place and does nothing to encourage greater scrutiny around important decisions if they know there's no consequence with them from supporters. As I say hopefully this is now in the past tense and we'll see improvement.
 
The difference with Burn and Perkins were that they had played at or higher than the current level we were at. Not so much of a gamble though perhaps uninspiring signings. Most teams at this level now have specific recruitment teams and use all sort of data on players before deciding to buy. Interestingly no other club at this level of football had expressed an interest in him because basically he isn't good enough. Backing a manager is one thing but sometimes bosses just can't acquiesce all the time to keep someone happy when everything suggests it's the wrong decision. If due diligence was done then there's no doubt it wouldn't have been justified to offer a player at his level and his age a 3 year deal. Hopefully with a new structure this sort of decision making on signings will improve as our revolving door policy tells us it hasn't been right for some years. If he has been signed to be the team joker regardless of ability then that's a pretty poor reason. Blindly supporting the clubs decisions when the evidence suggests they're wrong is just as bad as the poor decision in the first place and does nothing to encourage greater scrutiny around important decisions if they know there's no consequence with them from supporters. As I say hopefully this is now in the past tense and we'll see improvement.

But Perkins was mid 30s deemed surplus to requirements by a dreadful Blackpool side and Burn was apparently one of the worst players Fulham ever had. I remember they weren't just uninspiring they were deemed duds by many as their previous fans laughed at our stupidity to buy them. If we would've applied the logic you want us to apply to Cooks decision to bring in Naismith then it also would've applied to them and we would've missed out on 2 players of the seasons, 5m in selling Burn and who knows maybe cost us promotion. You can't be over ruling a manager on his signing decisions unless you want to sour your relationship and encourage him to look elswhere for employment.

The manager may get it wrong but he is the one who lives and dies by his signings. You might think you are saving him from himself but he will see it as being undermined by an interfering chairman or recruitment department. You have to trust your manager - if you dont trust him why not just sack him and get someone else in who you can trust? But what if he wants a different player we don't rate on paper - you end up back to square one.

Cook worked with Naismith before twice he was his top scorer, player of the season and played his best football under him. This wasn't a blind punt - Cook thought he could get the best out of him again and take the step up. At the moment it looks like his judgement was wrong but that was his choice to make and you simply cant veto your managers signings if you want to maintain a good relationship as chairman especially when your trying to get him to sign a new contract like we were. Cook said he walked out of Portsmouth because he wasnt able to get the assurances he wanted from their new chairman. So imagine if directly after promotion Cook brought us his wish list and we said you cant have them with Sunderland sniffing it hardly would've encouraged him to want to stay. If we lost Cook over not backing him we'd have all been going ballistic.

You can't accurately judge any player by what they've done elsewhere - different clubs and managerd get drastically different form out of players. Look at Leon Clarke diabolical for us in his previous time in the Championship in his late 20'. Then 2 or 3 years later, wrong side of 30 and ripping up trees for Sheff U. Football can be unpredictable and form book defying some managers can see things the rest of us cant in a player. Sometimes they turn out a stroke of genius and sometimes it looks a completely insane decision but the manager has to have the scope and final say to make those calls.
 
But Perkins was mid 30s deemed surplus to requirements by a dreadful Blackpool side and Burn was apparently one of the worst players Fulham ever had. I remember they weren't just uninspiring they were deemed duds by many as their previous fans laughed at our stupidity to buy them. If we would've applied the logic you want us to apply to Cooks decision to bring in Naismith then it also would've applied to them and we would've missed out on 2 players of the seasons, 5m in selling Burn and who knows maybe cost us promotion. You can't be over ruling a manager on his signing decisions unless you want to sour your relationship and encourage him to look elswhere for employment.

The manager may get it wrong but he is the one who lives and dies by his signings. You might think you are saving him from himself but he will see it as being undermined by an interfering chairman or recruitment department. You have to trust your manager - if you dont trust him why not just sack him and get someone else in who you can trust? But what if he wants a different player we don't rate on paper - you end up back to square one.

Cook worked with Naismith before twice he was his top scorer, player of the season and played his best football under him. This wasn't a blind punt - Cook thought he could get the best out of him again and take the step up. At the moment it looks like his judgement was wrong but that was his choice to make and you simply cant veto your managers signings if you want to maintain a good relationship as chairman especially when your trying to get him to sign a new contract like we were. Cook said he walked out of Portsmouth because he wasnt able to get the assurances he wanted from their new chairman. So imagine if directly after promotion Cook brought us his wish list and we said you cant have them with Sunderland sniffing it hardly would've encouraged him to want to stay. If we lost Cook over not backing him we'd have all been going ballistic.

You can't accurately judge any player by what they've done elsewhere - different clubs and managerd get drastically different form out of players. Look at Leon Clarke diabolical for us in his previous time in the Championship in his late 20'. Then 2 or 3 years later, wrong side of 30 and ripping up trees for Sheff U. Football can be unpredictable and form book defying some managers can see things the rest of us cant in a player. Sometimes they turn out a stroke of genius and sometimes it looks a completely insane decision but the manager has to have the scope and final say to make those calls.

The logic of the burn and Perkins signings were completely different given they had proven they could play at the level they were signed at Champ and L1. They weren't being asked to step up several levels.

At a lot of clubs now the manager doesn't have the final say and it isn't their job to scout and recruit players. Sure they may have an input but it isnt their decision. Of course the chairman could have overruled him without affecting the relationship - there should be boundaries and professionalism on both sides. Cook has never managed at this level remember. If he wished to quit because we hadn't sanctioned the signing of someone aged 27 who'd only played one season at the level below unspectacularly on a lengthy contract then that would be unprofessional and more fool him. We all know the difference in quality between L1 and the Championship, just because he knocked a few in against Cheltenham in L2 under Cook doesn't mean he can step up two leagues and do so against much better teams, especially given his age when there won't be much improvement in ability. His judgement to sign him was flawed based on emotion, a bit like the Gomez and mcmanaman signings second time around because they'd previously played for us. A bit like Holt we are now lumbered with him for three years as he won't get the same salary elsewhere. It's time for change in how we go about identifying and recruiting players and hopefully the high number of ineffective signings we make will be dramatically reduced going forward.
 
But Perkins was mid 30s deemed surplus to requirements by a dreadful Blackpool side and Burn was apparently one of the worst players Fulham ever had. I remember they weren't just uninspiring they were deemed duds by many as their previous fans laughed at our stupidity to buy them. If we would've applied the logic you want us to apply to Cooks decision to bring in Naismith then it also would've applied to them and we would've missed out on 2 players of the seasons, 5m in selling Burn and who knows maybe cost us promotion. You can't be over ruling a manager on his signing decisions unless you want to sour your relationship and encourage him to look elswhere for employment.

The manager may get it wrong but he is the one who lives and dies by his signings. You might think you are saving him from himself but he will see it as being undermined by an interfering chairman or recruitment department. You have to trust your manager - if you dont trust him why not just sack him and get someone else in who you can trust? But what if he wants a different player we don't rate on paper - you end up back to square one.

Cook worked with Naismith before twice he was his top scorer, player of the season and played his best football under him. This wasn't a blind punt - Cook thought he could get the best out of him again and take the step up. At the moment it looks like his judgement was wrong but that was his choice to make and you simply cant veto your managers signings if you want to maintain a good relationship as chairman especially when your trying to get him to sign a new contract like we were. Cook said he walked out of Portsmouth because he wasnt able to get the assurances he wanted from their new chairman. So imagine if directly after promotion Cook brought us his wish list and we said you cant have them with Sunderland sniffing it hardly would've encouraged him to want to stay. If we lost Cook over not backing him we'd have all been going ballistic.

You can't accurately judge any player by what they've done elsewhere - different clubs and managerd get drastically different form out of players. Look at Leon Clarke diabolical for us in his previous time in the Championship in his late 20'. Then 2 or 3 years later, wrong side of 30 and ripping up trees for Sheff U. Football can be unpredictable and form book defying some managers can see things the rest of us cant in a player. Sometimes they turn out a stroke of genius and sometimes it looks a completely insane decision but the manager has to have the scope and final say to make those calls.
Fair and decent points but a three year contract?? Maybe one year with an oppurtunity to extend similar to Roberts and Hunt and Bruce.
 
The logic of the burn and Perkins signings were completely different given they had proven they could play at the level they were signed at Champ and L1. They weren't being asked to step up several levels.

At a lot of clubs now the manager doesn't have the final say and it isn't their job to scout and recruit players. Sure they may have an input but it isnt their decision. Of course the chairman could have overruled him without affecting the relationship - there should be boundaries and professionalism on both sides. Cook has never managed at this level remember. If he wished to quit because we hadn't sanctioned the signing of someone aged 27 who'd only played one season at the level below unspectacularly on a lengthy contract then that would be unprofessional and more fool him. We all know the difference in quality between L1 and the Championship, just because he knocked a few in against Cheltenham in L2 under Cook doesn't mean he can step up two leagues and do so against much better teams, especially given his age when there won't be much improvement in ability. His judgement to sign him was flawed based on emotion, a bit like the Gomez and mcmanaman signings second time around because they'd previously played for us. A bit like Holt we are now lumbered with him for three years as he won't get the same salary elsewhere. It's time for change in how we go about identifying and recruiting players and hopefully the high number of ineffective signings we make will be dramatically reduced going forward.
So by your logic very few players would ever move up a league or two as just because they were good in L2 they will not be any good in L1 or Championship. Cook knows Naismith and thought he could make it, probably as backup in Championship. So far that doesn't look to have been correct, but that's football. People seem to have singled Naismith out to blame for every problem that we have. He is not playing well, but Cook is vastly more experienced than any of us armchair managers/ chairmen and scouting staff, so we have what we have.
 
The logic of the burn and Perkins signings were completely different given they had proven they could play at the level they were signed at Champ and L1. They weren't being asked to step up several levels.

At a lot of clubs now the manager doesn't have the final say and it isn't their job to scout and recruit players. Sure they may have an input but it isnt their decision. Of course the chairman could have overruled him without affecting the relationship - there should be boundaries and professionalism on both sides. Cook has never managed at this level remember. If he wished to quit because we hadn't sanctioned the signing of someone aged 27 who'd only played one season at the level below unspectacularly on a lengthy contract then that would be unprofessional and more fool him. We all know the difference in quality between L1 and the Championship, just because he knocked a few in against Cheltenham in L2 under Cook doesn't mean he can step up two leagues and do so against much better teams, especially given his age when there won't be much improvement in ability. His judgement to sign him was flawed based on emotion, a bit like the Gomez and mcmanaman signings second time around because they'd previously played for us. A bit like Holt we are now lumbered with him for three years as he won't get the same salary elsewhere. It's time for change in how we go about identifying and recruiting players and hopefully the high number of ineffective signings we make will be dramatically reduced going forward.

But the logic wasn't that different in regards that on paper all 3 had not been playing well for their previous clubs - Perks had been in decline for years and looked like his legs had gone and Burn was the Fitz Hall of Fulham tall but totally calamity prone - neither looked good enough for the level we were buying them for - they looked like nailed on flops without any hindsight. If we started vetoing players we don't think fit the bill, we would've not allowed Caldwell to buy Burn or Perks if he came and asked for them. And then it becomes a case of where do you draw the line, managers need to have the ability to take a chance on players if they feel strongly enough - sometimes they are right and the form book wrong. But every signing is a risk we spent millions on players who looked good on paper and flopped miserably so a free, likely cheap wages left winger isn't a singing i'd die on the hill to block.

Regarding the manager not having final say at other clubs, that is true with Brentford being a great example of the manager having minimal involvement in recruitment. But the big difference is we currently don't have that structure in place, when Cook joined we didn't tell him we were going to do that and he never agreed to it. You can't really throw that curve ball in after previously saying he'd have freedom to bring in who he saw fit without it causing issues. Espceically when at that point in the 12 months he'd been in charge he got so much right and had so much success he had done enough to deserve the trust we placed in him. Imagine if you were Cook and you had just enjoyed such a strong season, you were willing to work in a small budget and you go to the chairman who previously promised to back you and he suddenly says from now on him or others are going to have final say over your choice of signings - you wouldn't be very happy.

When you say Cook if decided to go Sunderland over not signing Naismith it would be more fool him - the thing is it wouldn't be over a 27 year old L1 winger, it would be because of general interference, and once you feel the chairman doesn't trust you, you feel less valued despite delivering promotion. So when a big club like Sunderland with the budget they have by L1 standards come in and say they will give you the level of control you feel Wigan took away from you it becomes more appealing. We've just been through so many bad managers we know how hard it is to find one. Now we've got one who's done so well losing him and starting from scratch after promotion would've been a disaster for us in the summer. If we lost Cook because we decided to pull the rug from under him and tell him he no longer has final say on signings it would be more fool us.

If we get a better recruitment team in place, if we tell Cook we are going to change the way we do signings moving forward in advance and he is happy with that or whoever the next manager ends up being joins knowing they don't have final say then fair enough blocking a signing like Naismith. But none of that is currently the case so it's hard to try and suddenly start acting like it. If that structure is built and Cooks record in the market doesn't look so good then we should reevaluate - but we aren't at that point yet.

It's easy to say Naismith is bad on paper and constantly say our club and manager were stupid for signing him if it doesn't work out. But when we sign a bad on paper player who turns out to defy the form book and turns out to be absolute gem the fans previously slating the decision don't constantly say 'i was wrong, my judgement was way off, thank God they didn't listen to me and they clearly knew what they were doing' - but chances are we've all had a couple of those.

That's the thing we all say we should or shouldn't sign a certain player and we've probably all got some right and wrong - including Cook. When it's a game of judgement mistakes will be made and it appears on evidence so far it was a mistake from Cook to sign Naismith - but we were right to let him make that judgement on his own without trying to step in at the time.

Regarding the 3 year contract - that is the strangest thing, as we've hardly given any of those out. I was pretty shocked he got 3 years too, i didn't understand how that happened, but i suspect that is more down to Jonathan Jackson than Cook, as i suspect once the manager give his list of players over to the financial people they handle the money side of things. That for me is the bigger issue than backing Cooks judgement on bringing Naismith in.
 
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We're going round and round on this one folk.

Taking a backward step. I reckon all points are valid:

- Naismith has done well for Cook before
- though he's shown little so far, he may actually come good for us
- 3 years does seem a little generous..... especially just for "potential"
- none of us know Naismith's wages, so the 3 year deal may be for peanuts
- Wiganers do love to be judge and jury at the earliest opportunity

When Da Silva came on last Saturday, though he chased shadows for much of the time, we also saw a glimpse of what he might be capable of.

Criticising a performance is one thing. However, condemning a signing, contract length, player potential or value for money requires a reasonable passing of time.

We may be approaching that, but we're surely not there yet.
 
So by your logic very few players would ever move up a league or two as just because they were good in L2 they will not be any good in L1 or Championship. Cook knows Naismith and thought he could make it, probably as backup in Championship. So far that doesn't look to have been correct, but that's football. People seem to have singled Naismith out to blame for every problem that we have. He is not playing well, but Cook is vastly more experienced than any of us armchair managers/ chairmen and scouting staff, so we have what we have.

You have to consider age and potential. A young 20 year old with lots of potential in him is worth a punt. A player supposedly at the peak of his career that has shown nothing in his career to suggest he could be a success at a much harder level isn't. The decision to sign him wasn't based on ability or potential. Let's get it right, no one is putting the blame for all our current ills at the feet of Naismith (no one puts the ball there either) but it's undeniable he's like a fish out of water and is painful to watch. Frustratingly it was obvious to most this would be the case when he signed.
 
But the logic wasn't that different in regards that on paper all 3 had not been playing well for their previous clubs - Perks had been in decline for years and looked like his legs had gone and Burn was the Fitz Hall of Fulham tall but totally calamity prone - neither looked good enough for the level we were buying them for - they looked like nailed on flops without any hindsight. If we started vetoing players we don't think fit the bill, we would've not allowed Caldwell to buy Burn or Perks if he came and asked for them. And then it becomes a case of where do you draw the line, managers need to have the ability to take a chance on players if they feel strongly enough - sometimes they are right and the form book wrong. But every signing is a risk we spent millions on players who looked good on paper and flopped miserably so a free, likely cheap wages left winger isn't a singing i'd die on the hill to block.

Regarding the manager not having final say at other clubs, that is true with Brentford being a great example of the manager having minimal involvement in recruitment. But the big difference is we currently don't have that structure in place, when Cook joined we didn't tell him we were going to do that and he never agreed to it. You can't really throw that curve ball in after previously saying he'd have freedom to bring in who he saw fit without it causing issues. Espceically when at that point in the 12 months he'd been in charge he got so much right and had so much success he had done enough to deserve the trust we placed in him. Imagine if you were Cook and you had just enjoyed such a strong season, you were willing to work in a small budget and you go to the chairman who previously promised to back you and he suddenly says from now on him or others are going to have final say over your choice of signings - you wouldn't be very happy.

When you say Cook if decided to go Sunderland over not signing Naismith it would be more fool him - the thing is it wouldn't be over a 27 year old L1 winger, it would be because of general interference, and once you feel the chairman doesn't trust you, you feel less valued despite delivering promotion. So when a big club like Sunderland with the budget they have by L1 standards come in and say they will give you the level of control you feel Wigan took away from you it becomes more appealing. We've just been through so many bad managers we know how hard it is to find one. Now we've got one who's done so well losing him and starting from scratch after promotion would've been a disaster for us in the summer. If we lost Cook because we decided to pull the rug from under him and tell him he no longer has final say on signings it would be more fool us.

If we get a better recruitment team in place, if we tell Cook we are going to change the way we do signings moving forward in advance and he is happy with that or whoever the next manager ends up being joins knowing they don't have final say then fair enough blocking a signing like Naismith. But none of that is currently the case so it's hard to try and suddenly start acting like it. If that structure is built and Cooks record in the market doesn't look so good then we should reevaluate - but we aren't at that point yet.

It's easy to say Naismith is bad on paper and constantly say our club and manager were stupid for signing him if it doesn't work out. But when we sign a bad on paper player who turns out to defy the form book and turns out to be absolute gem the fans previously slating the decision don't constantly say 'i was wrong, my judgement was way off, thank God they didn't listen to me and they clearly knew what they were doing' - but chances are we've all had a couple of those.

That's the thing we all say we should or shouldn't sign a certain player and we've probably all got some right and wrong - including Cook. When it's a game of judgement mistakes will be made and it appears on evidence so far it was a mistake from Cook to sign Naismith - but we were right to let him make that judgement on his own without trying to step in at the time.

Regarding the 3 year contract - that is the strangest thing, as we've hardly given any of those out. I was pretty shocked he got 3 years too, i didn't understand how that happened, but i suspect that is more down to Jonathan Jackson than Cook, as i suspect once the manager give his list of players over to the financial people they handle the money side of things. That for me is the bigger issue than backing Cooks judgement on bringing Naismith in.

Burn was a PL player and young. Hardly a massive gamble for an arse end Champ club. Perks was a journeyman pro signed for L1. I thought that one was uninspiring but said I was wrong, as did others, so it's not true that people don't acknowledge they were wrong about a player. I'm nigh on certain on this thread I said I hoped Naismith would prove me wrong, but that clearly won't be the case.

It's not a case of not backing or supporting a manager by vetoing a deal. Sharpe knows the quality of this league better than Cook, he should have been realistic and told him that realistically this lad wasn't up to it all things considered. You can't just offer a manager carte Blanche you have to look at things objectively and the bigger picture. That does ot should happen at every club. In regards dying on the hill to block it - if you sign him then it means you arent realistically seeking to sign someone with greater ability in that positon so effectively you're accepting a squad weakness.

I don't disagree that Cook has done well - but that's from a coaching perspective. From a recruitment perspective during his reign it has been mixed. I'm not saying he's identified all those players and it's difficult to know who has, but unquestionably we need a change of approach and strategy in how we go about this important area of business. I get that some signings work and some don't, but when everything points to the fact it won't then it's a serious error of judgement.
 
Burn was a PL player and young. Hardly a massive gamble for an arse end Champ club. Perks was a journeyman pro signed for L1. I thought that one was uninspiring but said I was wrong, as did others, so it's not true that people don't acknowledge they were wrong about a player. I'm nigh on certain on this thread I said I hoped Naismith would prove me wrong, but that clearly won't be the case.

It's not a case of not backing or supporting a manager by vetoing a deal. Sharpe knows the quality of this league better than Cook, he should have been realistic and told him that realistically this lad wasn't up to it all things considered. You can't just offer a manager carte Blanche you have to look at things objectively and the bigger picture. That does ot should happen at every club. In regards dying on the hill to block it - if you sign him then it means you arent realistically seeking to sign someone with greater ability in that positon so effectively you're accepting a squad weakness.

I don't disagree that Cook has done well - but that's from a coaching perspective. From a recruitment perspective during his reign it has been mixed. I'm not saying he's identified all those players and it's difficult to know who has, but unquestionably we need a change of approach and strategy in how we go about this important area of business. I get that some signings work and some don't, but when everything points to the fact it won't then it's a serious error of judgement.

Burn was not a Premier league player at the time, he was struggling in a terrible defence with Fulham at the level we were going to play at and had been released. I think you could certainly argue he was more a gamble than Naismith as we gave him a 3 year deal on i imagine drastically larger wages and we were banking on a player who every Fulham fan said was diabolical to be our first choice centre half. Compare that to Naismith excelled in his last spell under Cook at a lower level and was signed seemingly to be back up and i suspect on drastically smaller wages - on paper were either of gambles you'd take? Perkins career had been on the downturn, it seemed like his legs had gone and Blackpool who had just suffered an embarrasing season didn't think he was good enough for L1, for a team looking to bounce straight back up that looked an insanely bad target - it was inconceviable how this was the type of signing to help us bounce straight back. Again if we had a policy of blocking signings of palyers a manager asked for we certainly wouldn't have taken on Naismith but we also wouldn't have touched Burn and Perks (and probably a few others too) as everything pointed to all 3 not being good deals. It just shows you when back you manager sometimes you you get big wins (and other times bad mistakes) but you couldn't get those wins without risking the loses.

I think it's not right to suggest that Sharpe would be in a psoition to know more about Championship football than Cook. It wasn't so long ago loads of folks were saying Shapre had zero idea what he was doing after hiring Joyce. Cook has been in the game longer than Sharpe has been alive, and was managing clubs when Sharpe was still at school. That's not to say Sharpe is clueless but comparing those years of experience to Sharpes Chairmanship of about 4 years and zero playing or managerial experience wont put him in much of a position to try and tell Cook his judgement on a player is way off. Cook might not have managed at this level, but he will have watched plenty of Championship (like Sharpe) but he certainly knows what he is doing as 3 promotions and 2 play offs in his last 5 campaigns will attest. With the greatest respect to David Sharpe he probably has very little he could teach Cook compared to the other way round. I also suspect Sharpe never watched Naismith play while Cook and his team had worked with him for years - how could Sharpe or the recruitment team claim they had a better idea on Naismiths potential than Cook?

You say it wouldn't be a case of vetoing singings, but thats effectively exactly what it would be if Cook says 'i want him' and Sharpe says 'i don't rate him, you're not having him'. Regarding seeing the bigger picture that is precicely what blocking the signing would be not doing - you've got a manager who's done more than enough to deserve the benefit of the doubt, you've publically said that the manager always has the final say on all transfers at the last fans forum, the manager knows the player better than anyone and you're trying to get him to sign a new contract to see off a rival clubs sniffing around him. At that moment it would be needless to risk upsetting the goose that just laid the golden egg and not give him a free winger he see's something in even if the rest of us don't - he may have been right.

For acknowelding people being wrong, it's more the point the 'i was right' seems to happen regulary when the player is as bad as expected but if the player proves us wrong we may hear 'i was wrong' once but we don't repeat it every time the player shows how wrong we were. I've said it before in this thread i wouldn't have signed Naismith, it was easy to predict he'd turn out bad as his record on paper wasn't what we wanted. But i accept that's who my manager wanted and that i knew a lot less about him than Cook did, we've incorrectly judged players in the past only to be plesantly suprised, so all that's ever been argued is to give him a chance. Until we get a drastically different recruitment process in place and get Cook to agree he somone will have veto power over his signing - we have to give him that carte blanche. I'm 100% in favour of getting a better recruitment team in place and avoiding further mistakes by having a much better scouting system churning out superior results - but as it stood last summer we didn't have that and we had to give Cooks judgement the nod as that is the way we currently do things.

Naismith should be critasised when he plays badly - no one is pulling any punches or giving him an easy ride. But he was not the only player who played badly at the weekend but he is getting more stick than most - you can see him being the scapegoat already who will very possibly get his share of fair critasism for his own failings plus gets extra added on top that maybe some of his more popular team mates should have got. We don't need to constantly hound the lad and constantly remind everyone who was right to write him off before he'd even kicked a ball, just like we haven't constantly reminded everyone who was wrong about Perks and Burn after every good game they played over the years. When Naismith was signed i think all of us thought 'not sure on this one' but we had 2 choice deem him a dud and expect the worse or try to be hopeful and give him a chance - it's coming accross as 'i told you so' and a pleasure in him failing so it proves you right - when i'm sure you don't take pleasure in us struggling and don't want any Latics player to fail.
 
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Burn was not a Premier league player at the time, he was struggling in a terrible defence with Fulham at the level we were going to play at and had been released. I think you could certainly argue he was more a gamble than Naismith as we gave him a 3 year deal on i imagine drastically larger wages and we were banking on a player who every Fulham fan said was diabolical to be our first choice centre half. Compare that to Naismith excelled in his last spell under Cook at a lower level and was signed seemingly to be back up and i suspect on drastically smaller wages - on paper were either of gambles you'd take? Perkins career had been on the downturn, it seemed like his legs had gone and Blackpool who had just suffered an embarrasing season didn't think he was good enough for L1, for a team looking to bounce straight back up that looked an insanely bad target - it was inconceviable how this was the type of signing to help us bounce straight back. Again if we had a policy of blocking signings of palyers a manager asked for we certainly wouldn't have taken on Naismith but we also wouldn't have touched Burn and Perks (and probably a few others too) as everything pointed to all 3 not being good deals. It just shows you when back you manager sometimes you you get big wins (and other times bad mistakes) but you couldn't get those wins without risking the loses.

I think it's not right to suggest that Sharpe would be in a psoition to know more about Championship football than Cook. It wasn't so long ago loads of folks were saying Shapre had zero idea what he was doing after hiring Joyce. Cook has been in the game longer than Sharpe has been alive, and was managing clubs when Sharpe was still at school. That's not to say Sharpe is clueless but comparing those years of experience to Sharpes Chairmanship of about 4 years and zero playing or managerial experience wont put him in much of a position to try and tell Cook his judgement on a player is way off. Cook might not have managed at this level, but he will have watched plenty of Championship (like Sharpe) but he certainly knows what he is doing as 3 promotions and 2 play offs in his last 5 campaigns will attest. With the greatest respect to David Sharpe he probably has very little he could teach Cook compared to the other way round. I also suspect Sharpe never watched Naismith play while Cook and his team had worked with him for years - how could Sharpe or the recruitment team claim they had a better idea on Naismiths potential than Cook?

You say it wouldn't be a case of vetoing singings, but thats effectively exactly what it would be if Cook says 'i want him' and Sharpe says 'i don't rate him, you're not having him'. Regarding seeing the bigger picture that is precicely what blocking the signing would be not doing - you've got a manager who's done more than enough to deserve the benefit of the doubt, you've publically said that the manager always has the final say on all transfers at the last fans forum, the manager knows the player better than anyone and you're trying to get him to sign a new contract to see off a rival clubs sniffing around him. At that moment it would be needless to risk upsetting the goose that just laid the golden egg and not give him a free winger he see's something in even if the rest of us don't - he may have been right.

For acknowelding people being wrong, it's more the point the 'i was right' seems to happen regulary when the player is as bad as expected but if the player proves us wrong we may hear 'i was wrong' once but we don't repeat it every time the player shows how wrong we were. I've said it before in this thread i wouldn't have signed Naismith, it was easy to predict he'd turn out bad as his record on paper wasn't what we wanted. But i accept that's who my manager wanted and that i knew a lot less about him than Cook did, we've incorrectly judged players in the past only to be plesantly suprised, so all that's ever been argued is to give him a chance. Until we get a drastically different recruitment process in place and get Cook to agree he somone will have veto power over his signing - we have to give him that carte blanche. I'm 100% in favour of getting a better recruitment team in place and avoiding further mistakes by having a much better scouting system churning out superior results - but as it stood last summer we didn't have that and we had to give Cooks judgement the nod as that is the way we currently do things.

Naismith should be critasised when he plays badly - no one is pulling any punches or giving him an easy ride. But he was not the only player who played badly at the weekend but he is getting more stick than most - you can see him being the scapegoat already who will very possibly get his share of fair critasism for his own failings plus gets extra added on top that maybe some of his more popular team mates should have got. We don't need to constantly hound the lad and constantly remind everyone who was right to write him off before he'd even kicked a ball, just like we haven't constantly reminded everyone who was wrong about Perks and Burn after every good game they played over the years. When Naismith was signed i think all of us thought 'not sure on this one' but we had 2 choice deem him a dud and expect the worse or try to be hopeful and give him a chance - it's coming accross as 'i told you so' and a pleasure in him failing so it proves you right - when i'm sure you don't take pleasure in us struggling and don't want any Latics player to fail.

As I said earlier in this thread I stated i hoped he'd prove me wrong. I've said that about others in the past and have a knowledged it when they have. I certainly don't take pleasure in watching him struggle when it affects the team. However the point is not why he's crap or not, it's about the decision making around his signing and questioning that. It was illogical and based on nothing other than he'd managed him at two levels below several years ago. It was a signing that made no sense and should not have happened. Despite departing hopefully it's another lesson Sharpe has learnt about managing staff and having oversight on decisions. Perhaps he agreed with it and in which case it's another in the list of poor signings.

Given the ages, levels they've played at and the potential value of both, the signing of Dan Burn was certainly not a greater risk and I don't understand your reasoning behind that and surprised you actually think so. At least we agree that the recruitment aspect of how we go about our business needs improvement.
 
Comment earlier in thread that Naismith was a bad player on paper - not as bad as he is on grass though (or desi)....!
Any manager can buy a dud no problem with that. The problems come with the offer of the 3 year contract - poor decision.
But most baffling of all is why Cook keeps picking him ? If this continues it will destroy the players confidence completely, hack off the fans to a much higher level currently and reflect negatively on the managers wisdom -not a good plan
 
Comment earlier in thread that Naismith was a bad player on paper - not as bad as he is on grass though (or desi)....!
Any manager can buy a dud no problem with that. The problems come with the offer of the 3 year contract - poor decision.
But most baffling of all is why Cook keeps picking him ? If this continues it will destroy the players confidence completely, hack off the fans to a much higher level currently and reflect negatively on the managers wisdom -not a good plan
I think PC did not have a choice with that amount of injury. I suggest people listen to DS's interview to get some insight to some decisions. PC is aware of Kal's ability having worked with him before. And yes - it was embarrassing that some booed him off. How can we expect him to perform to his best when he knows the "supposedly" supporters are on his back? Players have been on record many times saying that they need our support - it does affect how they play. Imagine being criticised at work for every mistake - doesn't fill one with confidence does it?