Sunderland at DW

[C_Latic]

All of a sudden I feel a lot better about losing. Doesn't change the fact last night exposed that Sunderland have far better strength-in-depth than us mind which could be decisive as the season goes on. Let's hope for some good luck with injuries.

 

[Roy Race]

We all know there is a happy medium between tiki taka and pumping it long. I've no issue in going long if it is effective but so far aiming 60 yard balls at Wyke and Humphrys head hasn't been.

But surely that's all just about execution of the plan and the team gelling rather than getting the tactics wrong one week and right six others.. LR doesn't say to them one game "right lads let's play it low and accurate into Wyke" then the next game say "just lump it 60 yards to Charlie and hope for the best". The tactics are probably the same but some times the execution is spot on and other times its not. All depends on the players executing that plan, form, confidence, forming relationships etc etc.

 

[ExiledViking]

All of a sudden I feel a lot better about losing. Doesn't change the fact last night exposed that Sunderland have far better strength-in-depth than us mind which could be decisive as the season goes on. Let's hope for some good luck with injuries.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Yesterday really isn't that big of a deal in my opinion. So long as we keep winning in the league, who cares? It's unlikely we'll ever have to field the same team in the league and I think it was arguably the weakest of all 3 cup squads so far anyway. People seem to be forgetting our second-stringers more than held their own at Hull in the first round and represented themselves pretty well in a pressure match against Bolton - bad games happen, you can't play well every week and I don't think there's much point reading too much into the game because of that. They had their starting 10 in Pritchard, whereas we didn't have one at all with Keane rested and Thelo injured which made a big difference and was hardly a fair fight in a creative sense.

I think all the calling the coaching and tactics is a bit of an overreaction. It's still an incredibly new squad of players and our excellent start means people are forgetting how difficult it is . the likes of Kerr, Tilt, Lloyd and Bayliss for the first time against senior opposition. You only need to look at how shite Ipswich's start has been to grasp Most of those players on the pitch yesterday will only have played together once or twice at most -just how tough a task it is to fly out of the gates with a whole new squad.

We got flattened 4-0 by Bury in the FA Cup with a strong squad in 2015, they also had our number early in the season in the League Cup and the first league game in which we just scraped a draw. Things clicked by around January/February and we beat them pretty comfortably in the second league game if memory serves. Not saying Sunderland are Bury but it's a similar situation with a completely new team and I think some patience is needed.

The problem I see mate is how do they get the experience of playing competitive games together if we are not in the cup competitions.

U23's ?

By the way Bayliss was not in the squad.

 

[ExiledViking]

The problem I see mate is how do they get the experience of playing competitive games together if we are not in the cup competitions.

U23's ?

By the way Bayliss was not in the squad.

Bayliss was cup tied after coming on as a sub in PNEs 2nd round game.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

All of a sudden I feel a lot better about losing. Doesn't change the fact last night exposed that Sunderland have far better strength-in-depth than us mind which could be decisive as the season goes on. Let's hope for some good luck with injuries.

I hope they go on a cup run and get some fixture congestion and some distraction from the league.

The last time we won L1 Shrewsbury having 2 cup runs played a huge part in them falling away by the end of the season.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

But surely that's all just about execution of the plan and the team gelling rather than getting the tactics wrong one week and right six others.. LR doesn't say to them one game "right lads let's play it low and accurate into Wyke" then the next game say "just lump it 60 yards to Charlie and hope for the best". The tactics are probably the same but some times the execution is spot on and other times its not. All depends on the players executing that plan, form, confidence, forming relationships etc etc.

It's not as simple as the instructions remain the same and just start to work given time, they are being adjusted from week to week and within games to try and make them better based on what is working and failing. We've seen this happen in multiple games where we've made concerted efforts at points to switch from the team creating space for Watts to go long to creating space to get the ball into Cousins and Naylor to play through the middle.

We are going through the same process as we did when Moore first arrived and we started over using long ball and by passing midfield before we started to revert back to playing out through the def mids and it went from a slog to playing good football. It wasn't the tactics suddenly started working we had to evolve what we did.

 

[Oscarbon]

Maybe we have the wrong idea about Wyke. I had the impression he was a striker who was a header who wanted crosses coming in from either flank, but looking at his goals against Accy he seems more at home in finding space in the box and wanting it to his feet.

He scored 2 and watching the highlights he could have had a couple more if Callum and Keaney had looked to feed him rather than got for the shot.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Maybe we have the wrong idea about Wyke. I had the impression he was a striker who was a header who wanted crosses coming in from either flank, but looking at his goals against Accy he seems more at home in finding space in the box and wanting it to his feet.

He scored 2 and watching the highlights he could have had a couple more if Callum and Keaney had looked to feed him rather than got for the shot.

The sensible Sunderland fans who weren't just slating Wyke because he left said his lack of goals in his first 2 Sunderland seasons (11 goals in 60 games) was down to their managers at the time playing him as a target man up front on his own and pumping long balls at him constantly which he was no good at.

They went on to say that when Johnson came in they started playing football on the deck so he was asked more to just finish chances rather than do the battling for others and he turned into a goal machine with 31 in 54 and player of the season.

He scored a lot of goals from crosses, especially with his head, but he isn't like a Kieffer Moore who beats centre halves in the air to the ball, more he finds the space to nod home like Will Grigg would.

 

[jeffs right]

Just goes to show, we all see things differently. I thought we played far too much 4-2-4, with far too big a gap between the 2 and the front 4.

It's just that they were used to playing in their system, whilst we weren't.

Also, I thought we played it wide to Edwards and Jones plenty of times ....... but they didn't do a lot with it.

Too big a gap between the 5 and the 1.

 

[moonay]

Too big a gap between the 5 and the 1.

You're as wrong as wrong could be.

The gap was between the two defensive midfielders and the 3 supporting the striker. Massey Edwards and Jones simply weren't available (far too often) to take the ball from Cousins and Smith. Hence the long balls from the defence.

Well, that's what I saw anyway.

 

[The_Pon]

And what about the fans that bothered to turn up at £15 a pop do they not matter?

Whether we would have won the competition or not, you cannot defend that performance, the fans were ripped off tonight and have every right to be angry!

We all know that's how cup games go.

Despite all our activity in the transfer market, we still have a limited squad compared to our rivals in the division. Imagine if Jack Whatmough, Will Keane or Tendayi Darikwa had suffered a major injury in a meaningless cup game... it'd seriously compromise our league push. When all's said and done, the league cup is a waste of everyone's time and effort.

We can well do without the extra fixtures and risk that comes with them. Not saying I'm glad we're out of the cup... in fact, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The league is the focus this year and being out of the cup is a good thing from that perspective. Being out of a cup that no-one cares about protects our first team squad at virtually no cost to us.

Imagine how we'd feel as fans if we missed out on promotion by a point or two, and we'd had an important first team player injured at this stage... those key players are worth a point or more over the course of a season and if taking the pointless cup seriously ended up costing us promotion, then we'd rue that error from the manager in playing those key players in a cup game that means nothing. Let's face it, whilst I don't think Lee Johnson would be so unprofessional as to deliberately tell his fringe players to deliberately hurt our key players (suspensions are no biggy if you're not playing anyway), I also doubt he'd be telling them to go easy on us either. It would suit him down to the ground to see our best players injured. As such, Leam clearly told the team to go out there and protect themselves, if necessary at the cost of going out of the worthless cup, and I totally respect and agree with that decision. If / when we go up this season, not one person will remember the crap cup game, but the other way round, if that game cost us a key player and so screwed up our promotion chances by our losing the chance to have our best players out in every game that matters... we'd remember it for all the wrong reasons.

A season is a marathon, not a sprint, and a club like Latics can't afford to lose key players for the season chasing a dream in meaningless cup games. I never want Latics to lose, but in games like that, coming through with our squad intact is far more important than progressing in a cup that none give a fig about. Coming through that game injury free significantly improves our chances of promotion so is a win in and of itself. Lost the match on the night, yeah, but that tough call to take it easy, play fringe and young players and tell even them not to take any risks in order to protect themselves could be a difference maker for the entire season. The manager made a tough call, since we all love winning games, but it was the right call nonetheless.

 

[pie eater]

I'm assuming that all members of the first team squad train together and are coached by the same individuals.

If that is the case, why did one set of squad players look like a well-drilled team, and the other set of squad players like a complete bunch of strangers?

 

[The_Pon]

Thing is they could get injured in training think if you look the facts we have had a lot of players injured in training. over the years. What we going to do when the fa cup comes around. Chuck them games as well. This club should know more than most how a club like ours needs every penny. Think we are all getting carried away with our league position

Not getting carried away... far from it. I see our league position and I want us to maintain it. If anything, that's my point: It'll be difficult enough to stay at the top end even with all our best players fit. The best chance of that happening is for us not to suffer injuries to key players.

Yes, they could get injured in training, obviously, but they can't not train... but they can avoid unnecessary games in competitions that don't matter. It reduces the chance of injuries to not have those games, and anything that reduces the likelihood of losing key players is a good thing.

Should we 'throw' the FA Cup game(s)? Obviously not... No-one wants any match to be thrown by deliberately setting out to lose, but yes, I'd put out a team of kids and fringe players... players we can manage in the league without, for sure. A cup run is a luxury we shouldn't be risking when the league is the top priority, and so I really couldn't care less if we get knocked out of the cup. Unless we're playing someone like Horwich or PNE (games that matter for pride's sake), then minimum risk is the way to go in every game that isn't a league fixture.

 

[moonay]

I'm assuming that all members of the first team squad train together and are coached by the same individuals.

If that is the case, why did one set of squad players look like a well-drilled team, and the other set of squad players like a complete bunch of strangers?

Maybe, because the well drilled team have now played together on numerous occasions, and have therefore had the opportunity to translate that drilling into actual games?

 

[ZAKKY]

Not getting carried away... far from it. I see our league position and I want us to maintain it. If anything, that's my point: It'll be difficult enough to stay at the top end even with all our best players fit. The best chance of that happening is for us not to suffer injuries to key players.

Yes, they could get injured in training, obviously, but they can't not train... but they can avoid unnecessary games in competitions that don't matter. It reduces the chance of injuries to not have those games, and anything that reduces the likelihood of losing key players is a good thing.

Should we 'throw' the FA Cup game(s)? Obviously not... No-one wants any match to be thrown by deliberately setting out to lose, but yes, I'd put out a team of kids and fringe players... players we can manage in the league without, for sure. A cup run is a luxury we shouldn't be risking when the league is the top priority, and so I really couldn't care less if we get knocked out of the cup. Unless we're playing someone like Horwich or PNE (games that matter for pride's sake), then minimum risk is the way to go in every game that isn't a league fixture.

You can't pick and choose who you play weak teams against. In your plans we should be playing weaker teams against Bolton and Preston as well, we can't change just to please your pride it's all or nothing

 

[Tree and Crown]

Maybe, because the well drilled team have now played together on numerous occasions, and have therefore had the opportunity to translate that drilling into actual games?

So they haven't played together?

What excuse are you going to concoct for the lack of effort by the players? As professional footballers they should at least know the basics like, making a tackle, passing the ball to a team mate and at least fuckin' run and not walk around with hands on hips.

Total lack of commitment on Tuesday from the manager and players, the fans were robbed.

 

[moonay]

So they haven't played together?

What excuse are you going to concoct for the lack of effort by the players? As professional footballers they should at least know the basics like, making a tackle, passing the ball to a team mate and at least fuckin' run and not walk around with hands on hips.

Total lack of commitment on Tuesday from the manager and players, the fans were robbed.

In actual games? ..... no, they haven't.

I made no excuse for any perceived lack of effort ... though I personally didn't perceive any, though given the absence of any creativity or urgency, I can understand why others did.

As I said earlier in the thread, Cousins has been one of our better players in the 1st XI games so far, yet on tuesday, he was (I thought) one of our worst players. How does that work?

No-one was robbed ... except of their marbles, possibly.

 

[Roy Race]

So they haven't played together?

What excuse are you going to concoct for the lack of effort by the players? As professional footballers they should at least know the basics like, making a tackle, passing the ball to a team mate and at least fuckin' run and not walk around with hands on hips.

Total lack of commitment on Tuesday from the manager and players, the fans were robbed.

We lost a game of football, get over it man. It'll all be forgotten after tomorrow.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

We all know that's how cup games go.

Despite all our activity in the transfer market, we still have a limited squad compared to our rivals in the division. Imagine if Jack Whatmough, Will Keane or Tendayi Darikwa had suffered a major injury in a meaningless cup game... it'd seriously compromise our league push. When all's said and done, the league cup is a waste of everyone's time and effort.

We can well do without the extra fixtures and risk that comes with them. Not saying I'm glad we're out of the cup... in fact, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The league is the focus this year and being out of the cup is a good thing from that perspective. Being out of a cup that no-one cares about protects our first team squad at virtually no cost to us.

Imagine how we'd feel as fans if we missed out on promotion by a point or two, and we'd had an important first team player injured at this stage... those key players are worth a point or more over the course of a season and if taking the pointless cup seriously ended up costing us promotion, then we'd rue that error from the manager in playing those key players in a cup game that means nothing. Let's face it, whilst I don't think Lee Johnson would be so unprofessional as to deliberately tell his fringe players to deliberately hurt our key players (suspensions are no biggy if you're not playing anyway), I also doubt he'd be telling them to go easy on us either. It would suit him down to the ground to see our best players injured. As such, Leam clearly told the team to go out there and protect themselves, if necessary at the cost of going out of the worthless cup, and I totally respect and agree with that decision. If / when we go up this season, not one person will remember the crap cup game, but the other way round, if that game cost us a key player and so screwed up our promotion chances by our losing the chance to have our best players out in every game that matters... we'd remember it for all the wrong reasons.

A season is a marathon, not a sprint, and a club like Latics can't afford to lose key players for the season chasing a dream in meaningless cup games. I never want Latics to lose, but in games like that, coming through with our squad intact is far more important than progressing in a cup that none give a fig about. Coming through that game injury free significantly improves our chances of promotion so is a win in and of itself. Lost the match on the night, yeah, but that tough call to take it easy, play fringe and young players and tell even them not to take any risks in order to protect themselves could be a difference maker for the entire season. The manager made a tough call, since we all love winning games, but it was the right call nonetheless.

I understand the point you are making however I think you are missing the point that the majority are making, that the players we put out were not up to the task or simply going through the motions.

Whether the competition is irrelevant or not any player selected to play for our club needs to respect the shirt and put in the effort.

On Tuesday some players seemed, to me, to be simply not giving the required effort.

I totally agree with you that we should not be risking regular first team players in cup games if our priority is the league and promotion and I went to the game expecting a complete team of fringe and youth players to be put out. So I was going with no illusions as to what was being offered, my dismay was that the players we did put out, in my opinion, did not perform to the standards I would have expected of first team squad players.

Much has been made of the fact that these players have limited opportunity to play together in a competitive fixture and yet when they get the opportunity some fail to give their all. We are now out of that competition and therefore there are even fewer chances for those players to get the experience and to push their case for inclusion in the first eleven.

My criticism is not of the fact that we rested players it is simply that the players that played did not give their all for the shirt as I and, I am sure, all those that attended expected.