Sunderland at DW

[king_dezeeuw06]

Sorry to labor the point KDZ, but there you go again ........ you even say yourself that it was 2nd string vs 2nd string, so I'm not sure why you then link last night to "catching up to Sunderland yet".

If we're talking about squads, then I'd agree with you completely. However, it's the transposition of the comparison where I have the issue.

Our 2nd string isn't as good as Sunderland's. However, as our brand new side played them first game up, and we've improved significantly since then, whilst overhauling them in the league, I really don't see why we should consider ourselves inferior to them at this point. Fair enough, if injuries kick in, then the squad comparison may impede us, but at this point, - and yes, I know it's early - we're top of the league. after having played 3 of the other 5 in the top 6.

That'll do for me.

Personally i think the comparison is in the football methodology runs through both first and second string of both teams. I think the quality of players we have in the first 11 make our tactics look better than they are, while with inferior players it really shows up it's inherent flaws. While Sunderland's tactics make both first and second string look good.

I think if we'd have played our first 11 against their second 11 last night their style of play probably would've caused our first team a world of problems and possibly even beaten us. Sunderland's reserves were miles better than everyone else we've played since we played Sunderland's first team. I think we probably have similar quality squads, arguably we are stronger than them- but they have a much more effective style of play. I think we are inferior to them in that department and we are going to have to up our game if we want to stay above them in the league.

When you look at teams like Burton and compare them to Sunderland it's polar opposites, Sunderland have a certain type of player that lends themselves to playing a certain way, while Burton have a different set of players that lends themselves to play a certain way. Both styles are a perfect fit for their sets of players and both styles are effective in their own way - they play to their strengths. But i feel we seem like we have a squad of players closer to Sunderland but are asking them to play closer to Burton's style and it's a bit of a mismatch that we need to adjust.

 

[FrancosLoveChild]

I don't think getting worked up should be a problem, we rejoice when we win, we moan when we lose, that is part of any sport.

The result for me is something I don't care too much about, even though I saw it as a great chance to play a top club for extra revenue.

It's the performance of some individuals that I felt were merited to be worked up over. Some players at the club have been here for years and sadly, stealing a wage. You can't argue that we atleast deserve 100 percent effort on the pitch. Humphreys tried and gave it his all, sadly the other attacking players didn't. Tilt is no surprise, it's clearly built into his personality that he gives all no matter what.

 

[Tree and Crown]

Is anyone really getting that worked up or lacking perspective?

People are just critiquing the game on it's own merits, as they have done every other game that had a favourable result this season.

They were last night .......admittedly, you're not.

I for one am still pissed off even now, the fans were fuckin' cheated by the manager and his players, absolute shower of shite!

Sunderland played virtually a second string as well and wiped the floor with us, how the fuck can anyone defend that?

 

[moonay]

Personally i think the comparison is in the football methodology runs through both first and second string of both teams. I think the quality of players we have in the first 11 make our tactics look better than they are, while with inferior players it really shows up it's inherent flaws. While Sunderland's tactics make both first and second string look good.

I think if we'd have played our first 11 against their second 11 last night their style of play probably would've caused our first team a world of problems and possibly even beaten us. Sunderland's reserves were miles better than everyone else we've played since we played Sunderland's first team. I think we probably have similar quality squads, arguably we are stronger than them- but they have a much more effective style of play. I think we are inferior to them in that department and we are going to have to up our game if we want to stay above them in the league.

When you look at teams like Burton and compare them to Sunderland it's polar opposites, Sunderland have a certain type of player that lends themselves to playing a certain way, while Burton have a different set of players that lends themselves to play a certain way. Both styles are a perfect fit for their sets of players and both styles are effective in their own way - they play to their strengths. But i feel we seem like we have a squad of players closer to Sunderland but are asking them to play closer to Burton's style and it's a bit of a mismatch that we need to adjust.

And yet, they lost to Burton, couldn't beat Fleetwood and only just beat Accy.

I suppose we'll see in the long run.

 

[moonay]

I for one am still pissed off even now, the fans were fuckin' cheated by the manager and his players, absolute shower of shite!

Sunderland played virtually a second string as well and wiped the floor with us, how the fuck can anyone defend that?

Easily.

Read this thread ... but only after you've made sure that you've put all your toys back in your cot

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Personally i think the comparison is in the football methodology runs through both first and second string of both teams. I think the quality of players we have in the first 11 make our tactics look better than they are, while with inferior players it really shows up it's inherent flaws. While Sunderland's tactics make both first and second string look good.

I think if we'd have played our first 11 against their second 11 last night their style of play probably would've caused our first team a world of problems and possibly even beaten us. Sunderland's reserves were miles better than everyone else we've played since we played Sunderland's first team. I think we probably have similar quality squads, arguably we are stronger than them- but they have a much more effective style of play. I think we are inferior to them in that department and we are going to have to up our game if we want to stay above them in the league.

When you look at teams like Burton and compare them to Sunderland it's polar opposites, Sunderland have a certain type of player that lends themselves to playing a certain way, while Burton have a different set of players that lends themselves to play a certain way. Both styles are a perfect fit for their sets of players and both styles are effective in their own way - they play to their strengths. But i feel we seem like we have a squad of players closer to Sunderland but are asking them to play closer to Burton's style and it's a bit of a mismatch that we need to adjust.

I understand the point you are making about teams playing a system that suits their strengths and to be honest I believe that is what we are doing.

We are short of midfield players who are capable of bridging the gap between the back four and front three effectively. Playing the ball forward and missing out the midfield element is what we are doing, playing it high and expecting Wyke to win the ball is another thing, but playing it at a low trajectory and running the channels plays to both Lang and Wyke's strengths.

Kell Watts has a decent diagonal cross field ball in his locker and has been quite effective at producing the type of ball required and Max power is also able to pass the ball over the top accurately and both are getting to grips with the system as we saw on Saturday.

Until we sign or develop a player capable of bridging that gap, for me, that is the way to get the best out of the players we have. The signing of Bayliss gave me the hope that we had solved that issue but unfortunately he has either been injured or out of form and we continue to struggle to move the ball through the midfield. I have no doubt that it is something of concern to LR and he will be looking to solve the deficiency to give us other options in games.

 

[HudWiganFan]

Yesterday really isn't that big of a deal in my opinion. So long as we keep winning in the league, who cares? It's unlikely we'll ever have to field the same team in the league and I think it was arguably the weakest of all 3 cup squads so far anyway. People seem to be forgetting our second-stringers more than held their own at Hull in the first round and represented themselves pretty well in a pressure match against Bolton - bad games happen, you can't play well every week and I don't think there's much point reading too much into the game because of that. They had their starting 10 in Pritchard, whereas we didn't have one at all with Keane rested and Thelo injured which made a big difference and was hardly a fair fight in a creative sense.

I think all the calling the coaching and tactics is a bit of an overreaction. It's still an incredibly new squad of players and our excellent start means people are forgetting how difficult it is. Most of those players on the pitch yesterday will only have played together once or twice at most - the likes of Kerr, Tilt, Lloyd and Bayliss for the first time against senior opposition. You only need to look at how shite Ipswich's start has been to grasp just how tough a task it is to fly out of the gates with a whole new squad.

We got flattened 4-0 by Bury in the FA Cup with a strong squad in 2015, they also had our number early in the season in the League Cup and the first league game in which we just scraped a draw. Things clicked by around January/February and we beat them pretty comfortably in the second league game if memory serves. Not saying Sunderland are Bury but it's a similar situation with a completely new team and I think some patience is needed.

 

[charlz54]

It really annoys me when people try to use the reasoning that because the team hasn’t played together much, it ok to be sloppy and poor.
At the end of the day these are professional footballers whose job is to develop their football skills every day. Last night I saw players who couldn’t pass the ball to another member of their team……I saw midfield players who could not pass a ball through for our forward, I saw defensive players who couldn’t defend, I saw players who were always second to the ball ……professional footballers should be doing these things no matter who they play with….yes, the longer you play as a team you start to know where to play the ball but everyone on the pitch last night should be doing the BASICS.
Yes, the league is the priority but we could and should have done better last night……who knows we might just have won the game,draw a big premier club at home in the next round and make a Bob or two.

 

[HudWiganFan]

It really annoys me when people try to use the reasoning that because the team hasn’t played together much, it ok to be sloppy and poor.
At the end of the day these are professional footballers whose job is to develop their football skills every day. Last night I saw players who couldn’t pass the ball to another member of their team……I saw midfield players who could not pass a ball through for our forward, I saw defensive players who couldn’t defend, I saw players who were always second to the ball ……professional footballers should be doing these things no matter who they play with….yes, the longer you play as a team you start to know where to play the ball but everyone on the pitch last night should be doing the BASICS.
Yes, the league is the priority but we could and should have done better last night……who knows we might just have won the game,draw a big premier club at home in the next round and make a Bob or two.

Nobody is saying it's ok, but it happens on occasion and is the reality of football. And if it's going to happen, I'd much rather it be in a reserve game than a meaningful one.

 

[moonay]

Charles, in my opinion, Cousins was one of the biggest perpetrators of misplaced asses, yet for the 1st XI, he's generally been excellent.

I'm not sure how that fits with your assessment..

Too many payers had a poor game. Whether or not they knew much of each others' game may or may not have been a contributory factor. I suspect it was, but I don't know that I'm right.

By the way, I don't think anyone disagrees that we should have done better.

 

[Roy Race]

Personally i think the comparison is in the football methodology runs through both first and second string of both teams. I think the quality of players we have in the first 11 make our tactics look better than they are, while with inferior players it really shows up it's inherent flaws. While Sunderland's tactics make both first and second string look good.

I think if we'd have played our first 11 against their second 11 last night their style of play probably would've caused our first team a world of problems and possibly even beaten us. Sunderland's reserves were miles better than everyone else we've played since we played Sunderland's first team. I think we probably have similar quality squads, arguably we are stronger than them- but they have a much more effective style of play. I think we are inferior to them in that department and we are going to have to up our game if we want to stay above them in the league.

When you look at teams like Burton and compare them to Sunderland it's polar opposites, Sunderland have a certain type of player that lends themselves to playing a certain way, while Burton have a different set of players that lends themselves to play a certain way. Both styles are a perfect fit for their sets of players and both styles are effective in their own way - they play to their strengths. But i feel we seem like we have a squad of players closer to Sunderland but are asking them to play closer to Burton's style and it's a bit of a mismatch that we need to adjust.

Bloody hell KDZ can't believe what I'm reading. Since when did Sunderland stiffs turn into the second coming of Barcelona circa 2009.

Reading between the lines of your recent opinions youre basically saying you don't rate Richardson or his tactics and you have reservations about him, think he plays hoof ball and he's just getting away with it because he's got better players to work with than everyone else when in reality he's pre-lockdown Cook mark II.

Come on just admit it, you're amongst friends here.

 

[charlz54]

My point is, no matter who we play we should be able to carry out the football basics….PASS AND MOVE………when in possession find another player to pass to…..when you lose possession, wirk hard to get the ball back.
Last night, in my opinion, we DID NOT do the basics well enough.
I agree though, if a bad performance had to happen then it’s better happening in a game like last night than a league game like Saturday
I was very disappointed with our performance last night but it’s now time to move on

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

I for one am still pissed off even now, the fans were fuckin' cheated by the manager and his players, absolute shower of shite!

Sunderland played virtually a second string as well and wiped the floor with us, how the fuck can anyone defend that?

I wouldn't defend that performance as it was really poor, but I don't think the fans were deliberately cheated. That team has won games in this competition, it should've been more than capable of putting on a competitive display and potentially winning.

But we under performed, we got stuff wrong and Sunderland were miles better than us - it's disappointing for sure but it happens to everyone now and again in football.

With hindsight I'm sure Richardson probably would've done things differently but he picked a team and tactics he believed would work and he simply got it wrong. We've just learn from it and use the loss as motivation to get better.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

I understand the point you are making about teams playing a system that suits their strengths and to be honest I believe that is what we are doing.

We are short of midfield players who are capable of bridging the gap between the back four and front three effectively. Playing the ball forward and missing out the midfield element is what we are doing, playing it high and expecting Wyke to win the ball is another thing, but playing it at a low trajectory and running the channels plays to both Lang and Wyke's strengths.

Kell Watts has a decent diagonal cross field ball in his locker and has been quite effective at producing the type of ball required and Max power is also able to pass the ball over the top accurately and both are getting to grips with the system as we saw on Saturday.

Until we sign or develop a player capable of bridging that gap, for me, that is the way to get the best out of the players we have. The signing of Bayliss gave me the hope that we had solved that issue but unfortunately he has either been injured or out of form and we continue to struggle to move the ball through the midfield. I have no doubt that it is something of concern to LR and he will be looking to solve the deficiency to give us other options in games.

I don't think that bridging the gap between defence and attacking midfield requires a particular type of specialist player we don't have. I think what we have is more than capable of doing that and at times we've attempted to play that way in patches we have done it successfully. It's just about your method and movement.

I'd say looking for the Watt's long diagonal has been a weakness as they are always high and at Wykes head which he loses more often than not. The flatter more chipped passes from Power down the line into channels I think are fine as they like you say work but they aren't as prominent as Watts type long balls.

I think we just need to be looking for Naylor and Cousins to get involved more to give the full backs the opportunity to push up and maybe get the attacking mids coming a bit deeper to pick it up from them. At the moment we often leave a big gap in the centre of the pitch when we are in posession with the attacking mids so high and def mids so deep. But on the ocassions someone comes into that space and shows for the ball be it Cousins, Naylor, Keane, Lang etc it acts like a pivot and makes it so much easier to link everything together and open up play.

I personally think we've shown last season and this in patches we are capable of playing through midfield very effectively but for whatever reason we are looking to go more long (as we did when Moore arrived) and I think it's not our best option.

 

[jocklatic]

Charles, in my opinion, Cousins was one of the biggest perpetrators of misplaced asses, yet for the 1st XI, he's generally been excellent.

I'm not sure how that fits with your assessment..

Too many payers had a poor game. Whether or not they knew much of each others' game may or may not have been a contributory factor. I suspect it was, but I don't know that I'm right.

By the way, I don't think anyone disagrees that we should have done better.

Absolutely we 'should have done better' & had the team been marked by teacher it would have resulted in lines...100 lines x 'must try harder' followed by 100 lines × 'give more effort'....
As to Massey.....extra PE lessons & if zero improvement, do the right thing & bugger off

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Bloody hell KDZ can't believe what I'm reading. Since when did Sunderland stiffs turn into the second coming of Barcelona circa 2009.

Reading between the lines of your recent opinions youre basically saying you don't rate Richardson or his tactics and you have reservations about him, think he plays hoof ball and he's just getting away with it because he's got better players to work with than everyone else when in reality he's pre-lockdown Cook mark II.

Come on just admit it, you're amongst friends here.

Your reading between the lines is way off, probably best to stick to reading what was written.

I'll clarify what I've said plenty of times in this thread and others.

I think we are very well organised, very fit, work hard and battle hard. I think we have a strong squad and are capable of playing good football through midfield and have shown this in patches. But we do like to go long quite a lot.

I don't think Wyke and Humphrys are good strikers but not effective at winning flick ons and knock downs against centre halves so playing long for their head just gives away posession. While all our creativity and biggest goal threats from Keane, McClean and Lang need the ball to feet rather than chasing balls over their heads. I think we need to do more of the things that play to our strengths and less of the stuff we aren't as good at.

I think we've managed to get points despite not playing that well so far, we've earned those points generally by out battling teams but it would be disengenous to not acknowledge having a superior quality of player will have been part of that too. We have shown encouraging signs of evolving and improving over the last couple of games but I think there is still currently a big gap between where Sunderland are as a team and their style of play and where we are even if the points tally doesn't show it. That's not to say we can't or won't improve but that is where it currently is IMO.

 

[Roy Race]

Your reading between the lines is way off, probably best to stick to reading what was written.

I'll clarify what I've said plenty of times in this thread and others.

I think we are very well organised, very fit, work hard and battle hard. I think we have a strong squad and are capable of playing good football through midfield and have shown this in patches. But we do like to go long quite a lot.

I don't think Wyke and Humphrys are good strikers but not effective at winning flick ons and knock downs against centre halves so playing long for their head just gives away posession. While all our creativity and biggest goal threats from Keane, McClean and Lang need the ball to feet rather than chasing balls over their heads. I think we need to do more of the things that play to our strengths and less of the stuff we aren't as good at.

I think we've managed to get points despite not playing that well so far, we've earnec those points generally by out battling teams but it would be disengenous to not acknowledge having a superior quality of player will have been part of that too. We have shown signs of evolving over the last couple of games but I think there is still a big gap between Sunderland and us.

Nothing wrong with going long. Horses for courses. We tend to mix it up a bit, nothing wrong with that. Let's be honest if we went all tiki-taka the majority of our fans would be moaning about sideways passing.

Bit harsh to say we've just outbattled teams. In the seven league games we've outplayed Charlton, Wycombe, Accy & Donny. The others we've ground it out. As I said horses for courses. We've more than one string to our bow, have Sunderland?

You say there's a big gap between us and Sunderland, bit harsh on them it's only goal difference.

 

[Dudestalker]

I paid £15 in good faith that LR and the team picked would give it a go especially after the start we made, toothless performances like that are never going to keep the casuals interested.

I feel cheated tonight and i bet others do to, i hope the players and manager are proud of themselves.

Exactly

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Nothing wrong with going long. Horses for courses. We tend to mix it up a bit, nothing wrong with that. Let's be honest if we went all tiki-taka the majority of our fans would be moaning about sideways passing.

Bit harsh to say we've just outbattled teams. In the seven league games we've outplayed Charlton, Wycombe, Accy & Donny. The others we've ground it out. As I said horses for courses. We've more than one string to our bow, have Sunderland?

You say there's a big gap between us and Sunderland, bit harsh on them it's only goal difference.

We all know there is a happy medium between tiki taka and pumping it long. I've no issue in going long if it is effective but so far aiming 60 yard balls at Wyke and Humphrys head hasn't been.

 

[Lazysid]

Bollicks, we've missed out on a mid week trip to QPR.
TFFT!