So, whadda we gonna moan abart? | Page 27 | Vital Football

So, whadda we gonna moan abart?

Made in Wigan

Vital 1st Team Regular
You'll note I've played sneaky this time ........ by incorporating my responses within your quote, if you reply, it'll only show this little bit. :nerner:
;)
You’re being naive again, the purchase process won’t change, the normal rules beforehand certainly will. There is an urgent and desperate need for them, spending time negotiating beforehand who gets what won’t have occurred. The primary issue is getting them not where they’d hypothetically go. Individual countries will be selfish as with supplies, there won’t be much friendliness, citizens are dying.

As for the modelling, the finest people worldwide have been at it and countries are struggling. It’s even been admitted the need was underestimated - but sourcing has been going on. Plans are based on this. You should apply for a job with this wonderful foresight that has exceeded the best on several continents. I’m sure you’d be snapped as we need to get ahead of this 😉

As for ventilatorgate. Quite frankly at this point in time who gives a shit who manufactures them. If true I can’t believe companies are moaning about this They could always bell the EU and manufacture theirs once they’ve wasted months thrashing out who gets what.
 

moonay

Vital Football Hero
You’re being naive again, the purchase process won’t change, the normal rules beforehand certainly will. There is an urgent and desperate need for them, spending time negotiating beforehand who gets what won’t have occurred. The primary issue is getting them not where they’d hypothetically go. Individual countries will be selfish as with supplies, there won’t be much friendliness, citizens are dying.
.
The numbers that each country wants will have been discussed. The indicative allocation may or may not, because as we both agree on, the final allocation will depend on circumstances and priorities at the time of delivery.

Do you at last though acknowledge the difference between assets that are already owned, and assets that are to be allocated?

As for the modelling, the finest people worldwide have been at it and countries are struggling. It’s even been admitted the need was underestimated - but sourcing has been going on. Plans are based on this. You should apply for a job with this wonderful foresight that has exceeded the best on several continents. I’m sure you’d be snapped as we need to get ahead of this 😉
.
I'm not saying that anyone could have predicted the actual eventual numbers required. However, they'd have known current stocks and distribution, and should have had an idea whether that would be sufficient. It was clear at least a month ago that more would be required, so additional procurement should have started then ........ even if final numbers were changed.

As for ventilatorgate. Quite frankly at this point in time who gives a shit who manufactures them. If true I can’t believe companies are moaning about this They could always bell the EU and manufacture theirs once they’ve wasted months thrashing out who gets what.
I've ordered my popcorn....... in advance. I'll give you some if there's none left by the time you decide you want some.
;)
 

Made in Wigan

Vital 1st Team Regular
The numbers that each country wants will have been discussed. The indicative allocation may or may not, because as we both agree on, the final allocation will depend on circumstances and priorities at the time of delivery.

Do you at last though acknowledge the difference between assets that are already owned, and assets that are to be allocated?
The conversation will have been as many as they can get. It seems you now acknowledge negotiations will likely not have taken place as to who gets what. In regards the assets owned and those to be allocated - those with the greatest influence will get the majority of those accrued as we have already seen demonstrated with their unwillingness to share with EU partners desperately in need.

I'm not saying that anyone could have predicted the actual eventual numbers required. However, they'd have known current stocks and distribution, and should have had an idea whether that would be sufficient. It was clear at least a month ago that more would be required, so additional procurement should have started then ........ even if final numbers were changed.
According to deputy CMO they have been planning ahead, but acknowledges it is a pandemic so every country is ordering at the same and those countries have suffered with the disease. She also states there has been no lack of foresight and it is an unprecedented event. States it’s a new virus so you have it to understand it before you can accurately predict its effects and requirements to combat it, which is exactly as I’ve been saying.

You suggested you foresaw a shortfall in February, ahead of all the worldwide experts and modelling data generated by the most sophisticated computer systems. I’m impressed. Really. Kudos.

've ordered my popcorn....... in advance. I'll give you some if there's none left by the time you decide you want some.
See above. But sweet and salty for me thanks 😉
 

moonay

Vital Football Hero
The conversation will have been as many as they can get. It seems you now acknowledge negotiations will likely not have taken place as to who gets what. In regards the assets owned and those to be allocated - those with the greatest influence will get the majority of those accrued as we have already seen demonstrated with their unwillingness to share with EU partners desperately in need.
MiW, my very first response said that it would be based on who had the most critical patients. Hence, I said Italy and Spain.......that would be the "fair" way.

You then went on about how countries weren't being fair by not sharing existing assets. I pointed out that was a different issue.

You either grasp this, or you don't. I think you do, but want to keep on arguing the the toss, seeing as I gave an answer to a question you didn't expect one for.

I'll say no more on this.

According to deputy CMO they have been planning ahead, but acknowledges it is a pandemic so every country is ordering at the same and those countries have suffered with the disease. She also states there has been no lack of foresight and it is an unprecedented event. States it’s a new virus so you have it to understand it before you can accurately predict its effects and requirements to combat it, which is exactly as I’ve been saying.
They knew how many ventilators we had.
They'd be modelling likely hospital cases from the outset.
The plan was not to overload the NHS ....... but there was always a chance
New virus or not, they were expecting it to be devastating.
They absolutely must have known earlier than the start of this month that they'd likely need more ventilators. Not how many ......... just more.

You suggested you foresaw a shortfall in February, ahead of all the worldwide experts and modelling data generated by the most sophisticated computer systems. I’m impressed. Really. Kudos.
Really? More words in my mouth? Tell me the post where I said "I saw a shortfall". ....................... I'll need more popcorn.

...... sweet and salty for me thanks 😉
(I'll keep it clean !) ................. I could have guessed the "salty" bit.

;)
 

Made in Wigan

Vital 1st Team Regular
MiW, my very first response said that it would be based on who had the most critical patients. Hence, I said Italy and Spain.......that would be the "fair" way.

You then went on about how countries weren't being fair by not sharing existing assets. I pointed out that was a different issue.

You either grasp this, or you don't. I think you do, but want to keep on arguing the the toss, seeing as I gave an answer to a question you didn't expect one for.

I'll say no more on this.
And as I said ‘fair’ is unlikely to be factored in. Fellow EU countries had people dying and they wouldn’t send critical ppe. When push comes to shove it’s dog eats dog in this situation. We took a three pronged approach to acquiring what we needed and didn't go all in with 27 others.

ey knew how many ventilators we had.
They'd be modelling likely hospital cases from the outset.
The plan was not to overload the NHS ....... but there was always a chance
New virus or not, they were expecting it to be devastating.
They absolutely must have known earlier than the start of this month that they'd likely need more ventilators. Not how many ......... just more.
And as you’ve been told this was based on limited data against an enemy they knew nothing about. Per above we have taken a three pronged approach of purchase, upscale and and new. In regards the first a UK supplier (name escapes but can find out) has sourced and purchased them from several countries and are now hopefully en route.

In regards the second “ Breas UK, a Stratford-upon-Avon company that specialises in ventilators, is also working with the NHS to supply ventilators in the more immediate term. The company has tripled its capacity since December, adding employees, production lines and moved to 7-day working at factories in the UK, Sweden and the US. It is also offering remote training on how to use the ventilators for medical staff unfamiliar with them.” You’ll note the key month in there, so it seems they were two months ahead of you. Who’d have thunk it 😉
 

moonay

Vital Football Hero
And as you’ve been told this was based on limited data against an enemy they knew nothing about. Per above we have taken a three pronged approach of purchase, upscale and and new. In regards the first a UK supplier (name escapes but can find out) has sourced and purchased them from several countries and are now hopefully en route.
Yaaaaay. We're on the same hymn sheet at last. (I've skipped over the first bit ....... I'd said my piece (peace?) as promised.

So, based on "limited data" (which before you said they wouldn't have as it was a "new virus"), they did actually take early action. I wasn't aware of that .......but excellent news. Exactly what they should have done.

In regards the second “ Breas UK, a Stratford-upon-Avon company that specialises in ventilators, is also working with the NHS to supply ventilators in the more immediate term. The company has tripled its capacity since December, adding employees, production lines and moved to 7-day working at factories in the UK, Sweden and the US. It is also offering remote training on how to use the ventilators for medical staff unfamiliar with them.” You’ll note the key month in there, so it seems they were two months ahead of you. Who’d have thunk it 😉
Again, given your research (thank you for that), it seems that they did actually take action much much earlier than the timeline we've been discussing............ pretty much like I was saying they should have been.

The fact I wasn't aware of it is irrelevant........... they were doing it ......... just like I said they needed to be....... even with their incomplete assumptions.

I told you .............. I used to do this kind of stuff. ;)
:cheers:
 

Made in Wigan

Vital 1st Team Regular
So, based on "limited data" (which before you said they wouldn't have as it was a "new virus"), they did actually take early action. I wasn't aware of that .......but excellent news. Exactly what they should have done.
Limited data but based on previous modelling data for similar type of pandemic. Seriously, do you think our Chief scientists, medical officers etc haven’t been all over this? You seem to have been quick to dismiss, in previous posts, their efforts without understanding the full picture or scale of what has been going on. I’m glad they now meet your approval 😉

Again, given your research (thank you for that), it seems that they did actually take action much much earlier than the timeline we've been discussing............ pretty much like I was saying they should have been.

The fact I wasn't aware of it is irrelevant........... they were doing it ......... just like I said they needed to be....... even with their incomplete assumptions.

I told you .............. I used to do this kind of stuff. ;)
:cheers:
As I said I’m glad their efforts now meet your approval. Making decisions with limited info is what I also do. You need to keep re-evaluating and adapt accordingly once more information is available. This is quite an unprecedented health crisis, to expect a flawless response is unrealistic. There are things I’d have done different or sooner (no way would o have allowed 4000 Madrid fans into the country for example or allowed Cheltenham to go ahead) but hindsight is a wonderful thing and something the decision makers don’t have. And they have an extremely difficult job.

Oh you were two months behind the curve on this, I’d stick to retirement 😉😂

And a second oh - on the ventilators (I know I probably shouldn’t) given our ability to act independently to source our own, it would seem not being tied down by EU politics and red tape may have worked to our advantage. We’ll have to wait and see of course, but if this is the case I’m sure you’ll be quick to acknowledge this. Won’t you...😳
 

jocklatic

Vital Squad Member
Moonay n MiW...I hope during your ongoing, mind numbing, he said she said Brexit debate above that you BOTH found time to go outside at 8pm to clap & show support for our wonderful NHS.

I timed my evening run wrong, either that or I was a bit slower than normal so turned into my street when the clapping started.....cheeky barstewards I thot clapping me in the realised it was support for the NHS.....enabled me to slow down, walk & clap whilst getting my breath back

👏👏👏👏
 

moonay

Vital Football Hero
Right, my final post on this topic .......for the time being.

Limited data but based on previous modelling data for similar type of pandemic. Seriously, do you think our Chief scientists, medical officers etc haven’t been all over this? You seem to have been quick to dismiss, in previous posts, their efforts without understanding the full picture or scale of what has been going on. I’m glad they now meet your approval 😉
I'm not sure why you've said "limited data" like you have. I quoted the "limited data" from your quote. I know it was limited. I said they could still do it from limited data.

I presumed they would be all over it ......... but nothing had been said in any of the briefings ........ and then the next thing you know, Dyson's prototype is the big news.

I haven't dismissed any of their efforts. All I said was that I thought they'd have been working on it much earlier ........and as it turns out, they were.

Making decisions with limited info is what I also do. You need to keep re-evaluating and adapt accordingly once more information is available. This is quite an unprecedented health crisis, to expect a flawless response is unrealistic. There are things I’d have done different or sooner (no way would o have allowed 4000 Madrid fans into the country for example or allowed Cheltenham to go ahead) but hindsight is a wonderful thing and something the decision makers don’t have. And they have an extremely difficult job.

Oh you were two months behind the curve on this, I’d stick to retirement 😉😂
I fully agree with your first para ....... absolutely.

As for the "two months behind", I'd no idea what info they had nor when they first got it. However, if earlier in our "ping pong", I'd have said that they should have been looking at this before Christmas, I think you'd have filled yer boots in telling me that I was talking through my crystal balls. ;)

And a second oh - on the ventilators (I know I probably shouldn’t) given our ability to act independently to source our own, it would seem not being tied down by EU politics and red tape may have worked to our advantage. We’ll have to wait and see of course, but if this is the case I’m sure you’ll be quick to acknowledge this. Won’t you...😳
You may well be right....... and given the actions taken (as per your research), we may indeed be better off. ..................... and yes, I trust you think me sufficiently honourable to say so at the appropriate point.

Now ...... don't you have nappies to change? ;)

:cheers:
 

Made in Wigan

Vital 1st Team Regular
Moonay n MiW...I hope during your ongoing, mind numbing, he said she said Brexit debate above that you BOTH found time to go outside at 8pm to clap & show support for our wonderful NHS.

I timed my evening run wrong, either that or I was a bit slower than normal so turned into my street when the clapping started.....cheeky barstewards I thot clapping me in the realised it was support for the NHS.....enabled me to slow down, walk & clap whilst getting my breath back

👏👏👏👏
Well we’ve bugger all else to do so may as as well have a respectful debate

Nhs staff have my full respect, admiration and gratitude, so yes absolutely I clapped.
 

moonay

Vital Football Hero
Moonay n MiW...I hope during your ongoing, mind numbing, he said she said Brexit debate above that you BOTH found time to go outside at 8pm to clap & show support for our wonderful NHS.

I timed my evening run wrong, either that or I was a bit slower than normal so turned into my street when the clapping started.....cheeky barstewards I thot clapping me in the realised it was support for the NHS.....enabled me to slow down, walk & clap whilst getting my breath back

👏👏👏👏
Not Brexit Jock. That's still to come. ;)

Absolutely. Clapping, cheering, banging and clanging, horns pomping and even bloody fireworks.

I hope you took your ovation with good grace. :LOL:
 

hindleymonwafc

Vital 1st Team Regular
Is it just me or is nature in its element with the reduction in car exhaust fumes being belched out...there's spadgers all over my feeders and even 2 Robins braved the mob handed spadgers. I love them all and they all get fed...walked in fields for an hour and I've never seen as many butterflies, white, brown and even yellow everywhere. Nipped up cemetery with hot cross buns for my robin mates up there...they follow me fly in front and then sit on a gravestone as if to say " come on then "...robins are more brazen than other small birds and a delight.

Nature fights back.
 

jocklatic

Vital Squad Member
Is it just me or is nature in its element with the reduction in car exhaust fumes being belched out...there's spadgers all over my feeders and even 2 Robins braved the mob handed spadgers. I love them all and they all get fed...walked in fields for an hour and I've never seen as many butterflies, white, brown and even yellow everywhere. Nipped up cemetery with hot cross buns for my robin mates up there...they follow me fly in front and then sit on a gravestone as if to say " come on then "...robins are more brazen than other small birds and a delight.

Nature fights back.
My thots too HindleyM.....eerily quiet on my run tonight with very few cars n on my run over bridge above M6 was fairly empty. There was a satellite colour map of China during their lockdown & it was all light / neutral colours but since 'recovery' colours have brightened hints to warming up again. Oh n apparently the waters in Venice have never been so clear in decades!!! #naturefightback
 

Made in Wigan

Vital 1st Team Regular
I'm not sure why you've said "limited data" like you have. I quoted the "limited data" from your quote. I know it was limited. I said they could still do it from limited data.

I presumed they would be all over it ......... but nothing had been said in any of the briefings ........ and then the next thing you know, Dyson's prototype is the big news.

I haven't dismissed any of their efforts. All I said was that I thought they'd have been working on it much earlier ........and as it turns out, they were.
Your posts came across as dismissive of the efforts and smacked a little of hindsight. If not that intention then fair enough.

I wouldn't expect the government to make announcements of this type as it leads to panic and fear. Rest assured a lot of work will be going that won’t be disclosed.

As for the "two months behind", I'd no idea what info they had nor when they first got it. However, if earlier in our "ping pong", I'd have said that they should have been looking at this before Christmas, I think you'd have filled yer boots in telling me that I was talking through my crystal balls. ;)
Well you often talk balls so I wouldn’t be surprised 😉. I do wonder how long this thing has been going on for however, I sense it’s been circulating for a while.

Now ...... don't you have nappies to change?
No, little lad is in bed and I changed mine about half hour ago.
 

hindleymonwafc

Vital 1st Team Regular
My thots too HindleyM.....eerily quiet on my run tonight with very few cars n on my run over bridge above M6 was fairly empty. There was a satellite colour map of China during their lockdown & it was all light / neutral colours but since 'recovery' colours have brightened hints to warming up again. Oh n apparently the waters in Venice have never been so clear in decades!!! #naturefightback
Plus I'm fit as feck jock...walking miles, 20 minutes on exercise bike, 30 minutes on weights , eating fruit and veg all day and no ale...only missing footy nowt else.
 

moonay

Vital Football Hero
Your posts came across as dismissive of the efforts and smacked a little of hindsight. If not that intention then fair enough..
I didn't mean them to be. Honestly. The only thing I was dismissive of was the engagement of Dyson given his donation. I admit that I was puzzled why the seemed to be acting so late ........ but it turned out they weren't.

I wouldn't expect the government to make announcements of this type as it leads to panic and fear. Rest assured a lot of work will be going that won’t be disclosed.
Fair point(s) ............ I acknowledge that any announcement in December, and even January would have caused alarm ............. but surely by end of Feb, they could have said summat.

Any road ....... it sounds like we're done on this. I've enjoyed it.

(y)