Racism in football/booing/the knee | Page 6 | Vital Football

Racism in football/booing/the knee

Villan57 said:
Rio Ferdinand calling all people who boo ignorant stupid and don't even know why they are booing.

Rio Ferdinand calling people ignorant the irony is lost on him
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Said the man who thinks Trent Alexander-Arnold should start England's first game at the Euros :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::LOL::LOL::LOL::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
Platypus said:
Here we are again, most if not all of us white people, saying that we know better than black people how they should be protesting issues that directly affect them and not us. I keep saying it: There appears to be no acceptable way for them to protest unless it's easily ignorable for the majority. Kick It Out is exactly that; a bare whisper in the background, a poster on the FA wall, but doing nothing to challenge the majority and have them think remotely deeply about racism.

On a positive note, Gareth Southgate, whoever he is, wrote a piece in the Player's Tribune on representing England, and on the changing nature of "Englishness" and I think it's rather excellent. Doesn't specifically mention taking the knee or booing, but is no less powerful for it. Shame he can't manage for shit.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/dear-england-gareth-southgate-euros-soccer
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Nail/Head

BTW I don't think there is a "right" way in this situation. Ultimately, until we see change, real change in attitudes then all we can do is keep the discussion going, changing/moderating views one person at a time. Just look at the England cricket teams issues and then the PM sticks his big fat nose into matters that don't concern him and muddies the waters. There has to be consequences for actions and a clear statement that says hatred in any form, no matter how long ago it was, is not acceptable just because your a sportsman, a politician or someone famous.

Of course you can be rehabilitated, but it can't just be swept under the carpet.
 
The government - the people employed to lead the country - only a couple of months ago came to the conclusion that there is no systematic racism in the U.K.. (spoiler alert, I don’t agree with that conclusion, it can’t possibly be true even in a near perfect world).

The most important people in the country, think that no such thing exists (I’m not going to pretend to know what the report covered) - yet just look at baby mortality and black babies over index in terms of such tragedies. I’m not going to speculate why, could be genetics, could be lack of trust in the public services, it could be that white people get better care and attention, who knows. Long and short of it, the vast majority of people would probably suspect such systematic racism does exist in some form, even minor.

It’s a strange phenomenon to me that football is more emotive than what the government think. Football has more positives for inclusion and diversity than pretty much anything around the world despite an under current of idiots who send or shout abuse. Social media seems to be the hotbed for problems currently, yet they seem reluctant and slow to help stem the flow of awful messages being sent.

So to sum up - the government don’t think there is a problem, Facebook won’t stop the problem, but all football fans are the problem.

Football fans and football does more for equality as football significantly over indexes with black players who are on average better than white players. Even at grass roots level, it’s being different people together in a wonderful way which other sports don’t do as well.

There’s also a soundbite this is about getting rid of all racism. Racism in sport, in the country and across the globe is a much more complicated thing to understand and resolve than probably most people who are surrounded by a culture of their own to understand. In my experience, some of those cultures who suffer the most racism are also those who are the most racist.

These things are always a bit of a pendulum, when the momentum swings too far one way (eg the hard left BLM protests), only being out the other side and tempt people who are more on one side to become more extreme.

I don’t get the knee, to me it’s not clear as I perceive it as a US gesture against their problems along with being political. I know many argue it’s about “equality” but it isn’t in my opinion. Booing however is moronic, and fans should stop the distraction.

But these powerful footballers and stars such as Mings or Joshua, should avoid getting into to preaches around “black people supporting black business” and that nonsense (as someone who is from a stereotype who pays a lot of money to support both stars financially), and start boycotting the social media sites who won’t improve their procedures and start lobbying government harder to further square up the country in terms of opportunity.
 
"Merd" said:
Nail/Head

BTW I don't think there is a "right" way in this situation. Ultimately, until we see change, real change in attitudes then all we can do is keep the discussion going, changing/moderating views one person at a time. Just look at the England cricket teams issues and then the PM sticks his big fat nose into matters that don't concern him and muddies the waters. There has to be consequences for actions and a clear statement that says hatred in any form, no matter how long ago it was, is not acceptable just because your a sportsman, a politician or someone famous.

Of course you can be rehabilitated, but it can't just be swept under the carpet.
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I'm hopeful the cricket one will have a line drawn under it as I don't like the thought of being punished for something I said as a teenager if I've acknowledged it was ignorant and I've learned. What's dangerous from the PM's intervention is that the issue's currently under investigation and political meddling is completely unwelcome.
 
I think it’s potentially very dangerous to dig up things that happened years ago before people were fully grown adults. If any of us have been squeaky clean with everything that we’ve said in our lifetimes - given something such as “*****” is classed as a racist remark - then I’d be amazed

The part that needs to be addressed going forward, is that kids when they reach a certain age need educating and informing about social media. It’s something I didn’t have, but all these things people put on Twitter or wherever can be career damaging and people need to be warned.

As for the PM, he’s appealing to the centre right who really don’t care about this stuff, similar to Trump. He has no regard for these things, hence the report claiming there is no systemic racism.

In my opinion, incremental changes from systemic racism in many forms of like in the U.K. is the next step for us as one of the leading equitable countries in the world. It’s not perfect and that’s where we need to do more, but we must be one the world leaders.
 
Honest question, what is the racism in Britain that our footballers are kneeling in protest against?

Specifically, what do they want to see changed?
 
Honest question 2: what was acceptable 40, 30, 20 years ago isn't acceptable now. When I was growing up there were many comments/ sayings that would never be accepted now. So why is a cricketer being pilloried for comments made almost 10 years ago? Context is being thrown out of the window by many these days. So is free speech. 'Society' is becoming unable to accept the concept of differing opinions, preferring to expect agreement on many things. And is Boris (pillar boxes and all that) someone qualified to comment in any way?

As a side issue, a friend was told that he could not call his wife, 'wife' as that term implied ownership. This week I read that the term mother is no longer acceptable and a mother should now be called 'a parent who gave birth'. Slightly off topic maybe but who decides what is right and wrong and how can other views be entertained by those who believe they are right? :arrghh:
 
Platypus said:
Here we are again, most if not all of us white people, saying that we know better than black people how they should be protesting issues that directly affect them and not us. I keep saying it: There appears to be no acceptable way for them to protest unless it's easily ignorable for the majority. Kick It Out is exactly that; a bare whisper in the background, a poster on the FA wall, but doing nothing to challenge the majority and have them think remotely deeply about racism.

On a positive note, Gareth Southgate, whoever he is, wrote a piece in the Player's Tribune on representing England, and on the changing nature of "Englishness" and I think it's rather excellent. Doesn't specifically mention taking the knee or booing, but is no less powerful for it. Shame he can't manage for shit.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/dear-england-gareth-southgate-euros-soccer
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I agree with this. I do think that a lot of the booing comes from a defensive mindset though. It's not simply that they don't agree with the BLM movement, or think it isn't useful, there is an element of them being threatened, rightly or (mostly) wrongly by it.

Surely a big factor is whether BLM is a statement or a political movement. I'd say most see it as a statement (as I do). In this light it's really hard to sympathise with booing - there would have to be a racist and at best ignorant motive to do so.

There are those that have really pushed this to be a political movement however. This is where the fractions occur, helped in no small way by the daily mail's of this world. You will always get extremists in any ideology/movement etc. Unfortunately it only takes one person to say 'make all white people slaves' for it to get picked up and blown up in the media.

If BLM really put a focus on statement and distanced itself from political movement I think more people would welcome it. You can still force change with a strong and lasting statement too.

This is obviously coming from a white person's perspective, so I know I am not the best person to chip in with an opinion.

Something i am more qualified to talk about is the idea of privilege. It needs to be understood on a deeper level than it currently is, as at the moment I see it causing a lot of friction. Unfortunately, as soon as a word, like privilege is used as a slur, it gets tarnished. We now think of a privileged person as someone who mummy and daddy fund with houses and sports cars - being called privilege then feels like an attack.

In its true meaning, privilege is nothing to be ashamed of, it is simply an absence of inconvenience (not my words, but I love the expression). We are all privileged in many ways, no matter the colour of our skin. We will never realise the privilege of eyesight until it's gone. Only then do you know how much our society inconveniences blind people.

Same with colour - as white people we'll never know the inconvenience caused by not being white - it's not apparent to us. It is there though, from seemingly small inconveniences such as wrong colour plasters to more serious problems like increased suspicion from authorities.

If BLM could be a statment to make people aware of white privilege without the mere use of the word threatening white people, I think it'd go far. Pipe dream though!
 
JuanPabloAngel said:
Seriously?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
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With a partner about to give birth I can confirm that "mother" has been the term used throughout by everyone, hospital, NCT, whoever and we live in hippy, dippy, krusty, yurt-dwelling Bristol.

There are always extreme voices out there not representative of anyone sensible saying this shit but let's not focus on it, yeah?
 
Platypus said:
With a partner about to give birth I can confirm that "mother" has been the term used throughout by everyone, and we live in hippy, krusty, yurt-dwelling Bristol.

There are always extreme voices out there not representative of anyone sensible saying this shit but let's not focus on it, yeah?
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Can you drive a tractor though ?
 
Gordonsleftboot quote! (I messed up the formatting)

As a side issue, a friend was told that he could not call his wife, 'wife' as that term implied ownership. This week I read that the term mother is no longer acceptable and a mother should now be called 'a parent who gave birth'. Slightly off topic maybe but who decides what is right and wrong and how can other views be entertained by those who believe they are right? :arrghh:
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I'm not knocking you or your friend, but I do wonder who said that he couldn't call his wife, his wife? It is this sort of statement that gets people's backs up and papers love to run with it. However, if it was coming from one person, it doesn't really hold any water.

I could just as well say that you shouldn't call your dog a dog, because it might want to be a cat. If a paper picked up on it, it'd become a national outrage - when in truth it just came from the lips of some nutter on vital villa and isn't representative of what people actually want for equality.
 
I’m waiting for the day when I can’t say “you guys...” at work when referencing a group of men and women.

Even though in that context to me, “guys” is pretty gender neutral like the name Blake or Morgan.
 
Platypus said:
I look forward to the day when football fans care about racism as much as they do about *checks notes* the imminent threat of communism.
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How do you know that fans booing players taking the knee are all consumed by either racism or anti-Marxism? Don't bother answering its because the MSM and SM told you isn't it. If these players of any colour were actually sincere in their gestures, would they not be refusing to take part in the next World Cup, or is that type of racism different?

To me its just like every other argument these days, people on both sides just fling assertions (with no actual evidence other than "I think so it must be right") at each other.. Most arguments are much more nuanced than that, including I think this one.

I've never understood where this gesture ends, is it when all perceived, nominated or real racists no longer exist? Again in my view was powerful at first if you take the view that a murder 4,000 miles has anything to do with English football. If that is your view I respect your Freedom of Speech, why is it do you think you and Southgate (and co) can't respect an alternative viewpoint without actually KNOWING, why that view is prevalent amongst some, just assume the worst?

If as I understand it in this country there are Equality Laws which do not allow for discrimination against any minority, in every facet of our society, what exactly are these gifted, athletic multi-millionaires protesting about? What do you and them hope to achieve? If its the complete end of racism (very commendable) , but very unlikely sadly. I'm told these people want to "educate" me and others. Educate me in what? My "white privilege " , "my unconscious bias" or other physcobabble which scientifically has zero worth.

If its to "educate me" in my total opposition to violence (including slurs) by the majority to a minority, well I wouldn't waste their time as aforementioned its "total". There may well be racial issues in the USA, I'm sure they are, but what nobody seems to answer with actual facts and figures not emotion, is what these issues are here, now, today not decades ago ?
 
Platypus said:
'The Daily Telegraph has reported that a sign will be placed on the monument following conclusions in a report from June 2020 that it could be "misused by those with differing agendas to portray Hartlepool as unfriendly towards foreigners".'

The Daily Telegraph. Well you can put it in the bank then.
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As I live 4 miles from British West Harlepool I can verify said report. Incredibly lazy not investigating a report from an outlet you don't like, alas not untypical these days,
 
Tom Cat said:
I agree with this. I do think that a lot of the booing comes from a defensive mindset though. It's not simply that they don't agree with the BLM movement, or think it isn't useful, there is an element of them being threatened, rightly or (mostly) wrongly by it.

Surely a big factor is whether BLM is a statement or a political movement. I'd say most see it as a statement (as I do). In this light it's really hard to sympathise with booing - there would have to be a racist and at best ignorant motive to do so.

There are those that have really pushed this to be a political movement however. This is where the fractions occur, helped in no small way by the daily mail's of this world. You will always get extremists in any ideology/movement etc. Unfortunately it only takes one person to say 'make all white people slaves' for it to get picked up and blown up in the media.

If BLM really put a focus on statement and distanced itself from political movement I think more people would welcome it. You can still force change with a strong and lasting statement too.

This is obviously coming from a white person's perspective, so I know I am not the best person to chip in with an opinion.

Something i am more qualified to talk about is the idea of privilege. It needs to be understood on a deeper level than it currently is, as at the moment I see it causing a lot of friction. Unfortunately, as soon as a word, like privilege is used as a slur, it gets tarnished. We now think of a privileged person as someone who mummy and daddy fund with houses and sports cars - being called privilege then feels like an attack.

In its true meaning, privilege is nothing to be ashamed of, it is simply an absence of inconvenience (not my words, but I love the expression). We are all privileged in many ways, no matter the colour of our skin. We will never realise the privilege of eyesight until it's gone. Only then do you know how much our society inconveniences blind people.

Same with colour - as white people we'll never know the inconvenience caused by not being white - it's not apparent to us. It is there though, from seemingly small inconveniences such as wrong colour plasters to more serious problems like increased suspicion from authorities.

If BLM could be a statment to make people aware of white privilege without the mere use of the word threatening white people, I think it'd go far. Pipe dream though!
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Spot on, Tom.
 
Stuvilla1705 said:
How do you know that fans booing players taking the knee are all consumed by either racism or anti-Marxism? Don't bother answering its because the MSM and SM told you isn't it. If these players of any colour were actually sincere in their gestures, would they not be refusing to take part in the next World Cup, or is that type of racism different?

To me its just like every other argument these days, people on both sides just fling assertions (with no actual evidence other than "I think so it must be right") at each other.. Most arguments are much more nuanced than that, including I think this one.

I've never understood where this gesture ends, is it when all perceived, nominated or real racists no longer exist? Again in my view was powerful at first if you take the view that a murder 4,000 miles has anything to do with English football. If that is your view I respect your Freedom of Speech, why is it do you think you and Southgate (and co) can't respect an alternative viewpoint without actually KNOWING, why that view is prevalent amongst some, just assume the worst?

If as I understand it in this country there are Equality Laws which do not allow for discrimination against any minority, in every facet of our society, what exactly are these gifted, athletic multi-millionaires protesting about? What do you and them hope to achieve? If its the complete end of racism (very commendable) , but very unlikely sadly. I'm told these people want to "educate" me and others. Educate me in what? My "white privilege " , "my unconscious bias" or other physcobabble which scientifically has zero worth.

If its to "educate me" in my total opposition to violence (including slurs) by the majority to a minority, well I wouldn't waste their time as aforementioned its "total". There may well be racial issues in the USA, I'm sure they are, but what nobody seems to answer with actual facts and figures not emotion, is what these issues are here, now, today not decades ago ?
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You're just arguing with thin air here, but you did tell me to not bother replying so I'll leave you to rant in peace.
 
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