Police on police bullying and racism (FAO nobs, partly) | Page 4 | Vital Football

Police on police bullying and racism (FAO nobs, partly)

Wonder what will come out now. I always have a second look at what the establish tell before I fully believe anything (Politicians, Government, Armed Forces, Police, Tax even down to Planning enquiries). Ps I'm an ex Civil Servant so have had at times had slight insiders view.
 
I understand you think its a non story. Youve said that about 5 times withoutanswering the questions being raised. I just wonder on what evidence you believe this to be the case. I'm interested to see the evidence you have seen so i too can come to the same conclusion. You are so sure, so i want to come to the same conclusion as yourself if its so clear. Seems a bit odd you seem to have some access to evidence or even just some article somewhere, but wont share it.

Ive googled and cant find any of the specifics proving any of the 3 things i mentioned, that might we point out that the athlete absolutely refutes.
The original video (on Ms William's Twitter page) was about two mins long, it showed a view out of the back window where you could plainly see the police vehicle indicating for the car to stop, it didn't. You can clearly hear the engine of the car revving high, indicating speed.
The video has now been taken down "for legal reasons", I presume because she is planning to sue. Strange then that the part of the video showing what happened from the moment the car was stopped is still online, presumably (again) because that part is not in question.
As for police video, this cannot be leaked, its stored on a secure server and is now subject to an investigation, albeit voluntary (The Met has referred itself to the IOPC) so will not be released.
Sorry if there's not enough evidence for you AK, there seems to be plenty for the DPS who have twice investigated and twice said the officers acted correctly, as Lancs said, they are probably among the most thorough investigators in the Met and very good at their (very difficult) job.
As for the apology, this is far from an admission of guilt, probably along the lines of "sorry you feel this way but this is why we had to act as we did" but I can tell you now, they would never apologise for or admit wrongdoing if there was none as that would sway any future investigation.
 
As for the apology, this is far from an admission of guilt, probably along the lines of "sorry you feel this way but this is why we had to act as we did" but I can tell you now, they would never apologise for or admit wrongdoing if there was none as that would sway any future investigation.

If they would never apologise if there was no wrongdoing how can that square with the apology not being an admission of guilt??

I'm questioning your logic here, nobs, not the police's.
 
If they would never apologise if there was no wrongdoing how can that square with the apology not being an admission of guilt??

I'm questioning your logic here, nobs, not the police's.
They are not apologising for what they have done procedurally, but for the fact that Ms Williams was upset.

Seems I was about right

"Sorry for the distress caused by the incident"

No admission of guilt here

http://news.sky.com/story/bianca-wi...es-to-sprinter-after-stop-and-search-12023936
 
As usual, there are generally two sides to every story.

The truth is your own version.
 
Yeah I read the apology before coming on here. It's basically bowing to public pressure and being sorry for the distress the situation made her feel, but not that the situation was wrong.

My issue is it sets a poor precedent for having to apologise when conduct investigations show nothing was done wrong. It's not a good situation if the Police are gonna bow to social/mainstream media pressure at every opportunity.

It's an endless stream of:
- Someone posts short, edited clip of interaction with police with cries of misconduct/racism.
- Police investigate and find no wrongdoing
- Twinstabook ignore the police response
- Public opinion of the police is damaged for no reason
- The above happens in ever more angry cycles

Edit: typos
 
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They are not apologising for what they have done procedurally, but for the fact that Ms Williams was upset.

Seems I was about right

"Sorry for the distress caused by the incident"

No admission of guilt here

http://news.sky.com/story/bianca-wi...es-to-sprinter-after-stop-and-search-12023936

Well they shouldn't be apologising if they did nothing wrong.

On the other hand, if it turns out that Williams and the driver did nothing wrong and the police overreacted in a heavy handed matter then an apology is the least that should offer.

At the moment it seems that the police are in the wrong here but things aint always as they seem. Lancs and nobs seem convinced that the police have done nothing wrong. If they're right and the police acted in a measured and appropriate manner then I think they should definitely NOT have offered an apology.
 
Yeah I read the apology before coming on here. It's basically bowing to public pressure and being sorry for the distress the situation made her feel, but not that the situation was wrong.

My issue is it sets a poor precedent for having to apologise when conduct investigations show nothing was done wrong. It's not a good situation if the Police are gonna bow to social/mainstream media pressure at every opportunity.

It's an endless stream of:
- Someone posts short, edited clip of interaction with police with cries of misconduct/racism.
- Police investigate and find no wrongdoing
- Twinstabook ignore the police response
- Public opinion of the police is damaged for no reason
- The above happens in ever more angry cycles

Edit: typos


I agree, LDL, it`s why I made an earlier reference to some of those in the police`s senior management being overly Politically Correct. This situation frequently places officers on the street in invidious positions.
 
Well they shouldn't be apologising if they did nothing wrong.

On the other hand, if it turns out that Williams and the driver did nothing wrong and the police overreacted in a heavy handed matter then an apology is the least that should offer.

At the moment it seems that the police are in the wrong here but things aint always as they seem. Lancs and nobs seem convinced that the police have done nothing wrong. If they're right and the police acted in a measured and appropriate manner then I think they should definitely NOT have offered an apology.


What I said to Lockdown Life, Bud - senior management at NSY and elsewhere are frightened of their own shadows and losing out on a medal or knighthood - so will apologise profusely to anyone, anytime about anything - bit embarrassing sometimes, but it`s the face of the culture at the "top" of policing. If the public want it that way then fair enough. I`m not convinced.
 
What I said to Lockdown Life, Bud - senior management at NSY and elsewhere are frightened of their own shadows and losing out on a medal or knighthood - so will apologise profusely to anyone, anytime about anything - bit embarrassing sometimes, but it`s the face of the culture at the "top" of policing. If the public want it that way then fair enough. I`m not convinced.

I'm not convinced either. It is a bollocks.

That's what you get with hierarchical structures.

Those at the top of the police pyramid trying desperately to get recognition from those higher than themselves on the overall pyramid of power. It's sickening.
 
Thing is, 58, the thread of the article by Kevin Hurley that I published was as relevant to policing in the 70`s and 90s as it is today. The police service had just as many honourable and hard working officers in it back then as does today`s service and today`s service has just as many shirkers and slackers, as you call them, as did the 70s and 90`s.

I`m sorry, that`s why I get a tad touchy about your comments as some times, they come across, to me anyway, as generally sweeping in a derogatory sense, whenever you speak about policing in the recent past. I can understand that the (rightful) pride of having a (probably) young member of your family in the police might concentrate the mind more in terms of contemporary problems. I also accept that in all walks of life we learn lessons from the past. But, I think that , for some reason, I detect a general disdain for past generation policing that to me appears generally unfounded. If you were truly "there" i`d have expected to see knowledgeable critique expressed a bit more objectively. There will always be some bad eggs in the police, always were, always will be and it`s certainly right and proper to call them out. No-one, no-one, hates a crooked cop more than a cop does.

Policing has a sort of "family" complexion to it; the same challenges abound from one policing generation to the next. Officers support one another emotionally because of the shared experiences, often horrific, they go through - it`s been that way for many years. To start bringing politics into it, as if all coppers were Thatchers bully boys, is ridiculous, 58, and absolutely not true. You say that you were there, well if you were actually there, wearing the uniform and being on the front line, you would know that the gist of your commentary is unsound. When I say I was there, i mean, I was there, so my actual first hand experience, across the many echelons of law enforcement/policing affords me a long insight to what was occurring then and, as it happens, up to the very recent, pretty much contemporary, actually, moment in time.

I do sometimes worry about the direction that policing in the UK is headed. Some senior management in the police has lost the plot and become obsessed with political correctness - police are confused about what society expects of them. Society will eventually dictate how the profession moves forward, as it always does ( society will get the police force it deserves - an age old and true saying) and one of the concerns I have is that we are moving towards a French system of policing. An armed "regular" police force (Gendarmes) and a separate public order element (CRS). Policing by consent is at risk - because large and, it appears, growing numbers of citizens are routinely and overtly withdrawing their consent ! What do you do then, dismantle the police ? - that would lead to absolute chaos. Reform the police, how ? How do you shape a police service to the absolute satisfaction of all communities and all sections of society ? I worry that the government of the day might eventually be left with just one route - policing by force. Some might welcome that, bringing back the water cannons and bashing protesters might appeal to some. I would not.

I wish your family member all the very best in her career and hope that she stays safe and enjoys her work. The job provides officers with a seat in the front row of life - it`s an experience most will never have. If she is a young person then doing the job will accelerate her journey of life experiences and ensure that she "grows up" very quickly, probably ahead of her time - it`s that sort of environment. All the best to her.
Agree with 95% of that.

My contact had a few years experience of real life after Uni before joining up. Has held her in good stead, not as green as the younguns. Thanks for your comments and wishes.

Thatcher politicised the police like they never had been before or since. Late 70's/80's was not a good time to be a resident in London with some police operating as they did then. I certainly didn't regard them as allies at the time.. Obviously the large majority were fine but I had and saw many poor episodes. This is coming from someone who is pro police and with no criminal record, not even any points on my driving licence after 44 years on the road.

As I said, I've seen big improvements in both the police and in the teaching profession regarding practice and behaviour. I agree with your concerns about the police being attacked from all sides. People need to realise how lucky they are to have policing by consent. Neither I nor my contact want to go down the road to the military style of many other countries.
 
Agree with 95% of that.

My contact had a few years experience of real life after Uni before joining up. Has held her in good stead, not as green as the younguns. Thanks for your comments and wishes.

Thatcher politicised the police like they never had been before or since. Late 70's/80's was not a good time to be a resident in London with some police operating as they did then. I certainly didn't regard them as allies at the time.. Obviously the large majority were fine but I had and saw many poor episodes. This is coming from someone who is pro police and with no criminal record, not even any points on my driving licence after 44 years on the road.

As I said, I've seen big improvements in both the police and in the teaching profession regarding practice and behaviour. I agree with your concerns about the police being attacked from all sides. People need to realise how lucky they are to have policing by consent. Neither I nor my contact want to go down the road to the military style of many other countries.

Cheers 58
 
People need to realise how lucky they are to have policing by consent. Neither I nor my contact want to go down the road to the military style of many other countries.

This country has already started down the road towards military style policing. It was inevitable that it would happen and it is inevitable that it will only become more militaristic in the coming years.

The whole, 'policing by consent' thing is a bit of a myth. Maybe a myth that has come to have some truth in it, but a myth nevertheless.

You only have to look at that document that nobs (or was it Lancs?!) put up detailing the conditions that the original police had to agree to - they clearly demonstrate that in the beginning, at least, there was no general consent.

But, over the years, certainly there has been a general consensus that the police are here to protect us. And the more that that view has engendered the more that the myth of policing by consent has become a (partial) reality.

Of course it's not a reality for certain sections of society. You'd expect the criminal class to not consent but there is a sizeable proportion of law abiding citizens who simply do not consent to the way the police police. These people will include members of the black community and environmental activists.

In fact, the only people who consent to the police are the people who aren't being bothered by the police. Those to whom the police cause bother and aggravation will clearly not consent. Naturally criminals wont consent but I don't think that matters so much! What does matter is when innocent people are feeling that they're being targeted. Nobody can deny that many black people feel they're unfairly targeted because of their skin colour. Nobody can deny that a number of innocent lives have been destroyed by police infiltration to non-violent environmentalist protest groups. None of this is due to policing by consent.

I do agree that the illusion of policing by consent is preferable to the in-yer-face militaristic style of policing that happens elsewhere. But don't kid yourself that that wouldn't happen here if people tried to enact change. All the time the vast majority are content with things there is no need (or little need) for the policing by force approach. If that ever changed, so too would the style of policing. In a heartbeat.
 
This country has already started down the road towards military style policing. It was inevitable that it would happen and it is inevitable that it will only become more militaristic in the coming years.

The whole, 'policing by consent' thing is a bit of a myth. Maybe a myth that has come to have some truth in it, but a myth nevertheless.

You only have to look at that document that nobs (or was it Lancs?!) put up detailing the conditions that the original police had to agree to - they clearly demonstrate that in the beginning, at least, there was no general consent.

But, over the years, certainly there has been a general consensus that the police are here to protect us. And the more that that view has engendered the more that the myth of policing by consent has become a (partial) reality.

Of course it's not a reality for certain sections of society. You'd expect the criminal class to not consent but there is a sizeable proportion of law abiding citizens who simply do not consent to the way the police police. These people will include members of the black community and environmental activists.

In fact, the only people who consent to the police are the people who aren't being bothered by the police. Those to whom the police cause bother and aggravation will clearly not consent. Naturally criminals wont consent but I don't think that matters so much! What does matter is when innocent people are feeling that they're being targeted. Nobody can deny that many black people feel they're unfairly targeted because of their skin colour. Nobody can deny that a number of innocent lives have been destroyed by police infiltration to non-violent environmentalist protest groups. None of this is due to policing by consent.

I do agree that the illusion of policing by consent is preferable to the in-yer-face militaristic style of policing that happens elsewhere. But don't kid yourself that that wouldn't happen here if people tried to enact change. All the time the vast majority are content with things there is no need (or little need) for the policing by force approach. If that ever changed, so too would the style of policing. In a heartbeat.

I'm not sure it's related to trying to enact change Bud though that might trigger it. The public are happy for things to bumble along in the background providing most are relatively comfortable. The more that feel insecure, that they have few good choices, that they struggle to survive then the more the scales tip.

I am uneasy at how quick many who oppose the current set up go straight to hyperbole. Proper militaristic policing requires either an authoritarian coup, or a complete breakdown of law and order. The latter will rapidly persuade millions of moderate individuals to embrace militaristic policing. All terms can be loaded with values but I regard policing by consent slightly differently. I don't think it's fluffy and nice and pleasing to all. It's an imperfect beast that is hard to define exactly, which is half the point. It needs to antagonise as few as possible while enjoying some sort of support from grudging to outright approval from a good majority. You may find yourself antagonised from time to time for reasons good and bad.

We do have more problems policing some communities than others and that is somewhat inevitable. It reflects who and what we are collectively rather than police bias, or malpractice..
 
Sorry AK, as I said, it`s a non-story as far as i`m concerned. I`m sure that you`ll be able to keep abreast of what is/becomes publicly available and you can make your own mind up. Cheers.

Very dismissive to call it a ‘non-story’ when it has the potential to undermine trust in the police.

My position on this is the same as with the SYL-swimming pool saga. Independent verification of the facts is required to reach a decision.
 
What I said to Lockdown Life, Bud - senior management at NSY and elsewhere are frightened of their own shadows and losing out on a medal or knighthood - so will apologise profusely to anyone, anytime about anything - bit embarrassing sometimes, but it`s the face of the culture at the "top" of policing. If the public want it that way then fair enough. I`m not convinced.

Agree. If I were the police at the coal face I would be disappointed.


Its a bit like politicians apologising for really serious misdemeanours. In reality they are sorry they got caught.

Maybe the two sprinters will apologies for their aggressive shouting and screaming as well.

Sometimes a sorry is all that is needed to defuse the situation though (eh, Wayne)
 
The following is a recently written article (it appeared in The Spectator) by a former Metropolitan Police Chief Superintendent (Kevin Hurley). The content resonates with a large proportion of current and ex police officers and, in that context, i`ve placed it on this forum so that members might get a feel for why ordinary cops become so frustrated about being slurred as racist.......

It`s a bit of a long read, but hits the spot. Thanks to anyone who takes the time to give it a whirl......


I was a borough commander in west London and come from a long line of officers — and I can tell you that it’s fast becoming impossible to police the streets. The police are attacked on all sides. They’re told both that they’re too aggressive and too politically correct; too understanding and too intolerant. They’re required to reduce the level of violent crime on the street and yet told they’re racist if they stop and search young black men and ‘put hands in pockets’ to check for knives.

As a society we can shout and scream at the police, regulate them, scrutinise them, sack a few, bring in external bosses from industry. We can try to ‘re-educate’ them and have an independent complaints system. But unless we look clearly at the real problems street constables and junior detectives face every day, our cities will soon be lawless.


The first thing to understand is that the ‘police’ are not a homogenous group. A response police officer in inner London has little in common with the commissioner or her senior officers, save that they wear a similar uniform. While both groups want to think they are making a difference, the chiefs will be thinking of long-term strategies, managing budgets, building relationships with other government bodies. Occasionally they will be diverted into thinking about some fast-moving issue such as a terrorist event or newspaper criticism of the handling of a major inquiry.

Once dealing with dynamic events is no longer their daily business, police chiefs can forget what it’s like to be a superintendent or inspector. They want good press and they become calculating and political in pursuit of the top job.

The street cops generally come from fairly good homes. Most have decent educations. A lot of them nowadays have been to university or have done a variety of jobs before they joined, from infantrymen in Afghanistan to nurses or restaurant managers. The majority are still white, but that’s no surprise really: most have joined due to having had positive exposure to police officers in the past. A surprising number of police are, like me, related to other police officers or to service personnel.

No one who joins the police would express a racist view when being selected or during training — to express such a view in the workplace would be suicidal to their careers and would at the very least result in several of their colleagues turning on them. So why do so many young black people loathe the police? Why is there so much violence?

It all comes down to what in police circles is known as the ‘Betari box’ of human behaviour. This describes a vicious circle: your behaviour influences my behaviour; my behaviour influences your behaviour.

This is how it works. Imagine a newly minted PC arriving on an inner London borough where black-on-black stabbings and murders are a priority. Together with an experienced colleague, she will approach a pair of known street criminals to ask them what they are doing in a particular location. But as the officers approach, the young men will often start to be abusive, saying: ‘You’re only picking on me because I’m black.’ A big crowd of people will then surround the officers and start to shout, even obstruct them. The police will call for help and help will arrive with sirens blaring; the police will either dominate, or they will run away (withdraw).

After such an encounter, inevitably complaints will be made against the police officers, and after a few more episodes like this, our young officer’s ‘Betari box’ has become fixed. She thinks: if I try to solve problems and keep the black community safe, I’m accused of bigotry. Meanwhile the myth of police racism continues and the black youths at that incident convince themselves that they were picked on in an unjustified search.

It’s often the best young officers who become most disillusioned. I remember one young street crime squad officer in central London who had a prolific arrest rate of criminals. The secret of his success was loitering around Victoria station, learning the known suspects’ faces and observing carefully. It was dangerous and violent work, making arrests in plain clothes next to the live rail, but it was rewarding.

Because his 25 most recent arrests were all black youths, this officer was called in by his superintendent and told he was racially biased. The officer replied: ‘But most of the muggings and snatches in this area are being done by black youths.’ The senior officer said: ‘That’s not the point. I think you need to go on a racial awareness course.’

The superintendent put an adverse comment on the officer’s file and blocked his application for promotion. The officer gave up arresting robbers and became an errand boy for the CID, going out and arresting their burglary suspects identified by fingerprints. Most burglars are white. It was safe work.

When I was a borough commander in west London, I asked the crime analysts to identify the ten most prolific robbers in the area and the ten most violent gang members. When they’d been identified, I stuck their photographs up on the exit door from the station into the police vehicle car park. This was where the PCs drank their tea before going on patrol, so my idea was that this way, even the most idle officers would have to look at and learn the criminals’ faces before they went out on patrol.

Then my senior officer came on a ‘royal visit’. He wanted to know how we did so well at reducing robbery and why we had no youth murders. As I explained our various tactics and we went out of the car park door. He noticed the 20 photos and said: ‘Why have you got all these black youths’ pictures stuck up here? You can’t do that — it sends the wrong message to any visitors.’ When I explained my rationale, my boss replied: ‘Well, take some down and put some white ones up as well.’ But these are the men identified as the most high-risk to the public by our civilian analysts, I answered. I was told: ‘I don’t care. We can’t have this, take them down.’

When my boss left, I ignored his instructions. The safety of the public was more important to me. Though my boss made sure I wasn’t promoted again, we remained a top performing borough, we had no youth murders, and my successor soon inherited the only inner-city borough not to face rioting or looting in 2011.

For many people, the idea that the police are racist fits with their view of history. It’s not all unfounded. They think of the abominations suffered at colonial hands, the terrible experiences of the Windrush generation and the racism of the 1950s and 1960s. It’s a toxic mix.

It is also too often the case now that black fathers are absent, leaving mothers and grandmothers to bring up the kids. Often these women are forced to be away from the children, working all hours in hard low-paid jobs such as carers or cleaners, sometimes doing two jobs or struggling on benefits. Is it any wonder that so many young black boys end up in trouble? So there is no doubt that they suffer social disadvantages. But then so do many poor white children.

The result of all this is that the police have given up being inquisitive. Most people don’t realise the most important quality in a copper is to be nosey. You have got to want to investigate and to get to the bottom of a problem.

If police lose the appetite to investigate, this would be a disaster for black families. It would mean many more mothers would lose their sons to the knife, gun or a lifetime in prison. It would mean that our streets would become scarier, and that county lines gangs would flourish, bringing drugs into our leafy shires and blighting the lives of more black children.

If black lives really mattered, we would change the conditions that result in this carnage. But we don’t. That is real institutional, systemic racism.


Thanks for taking the time to read the above.
Hey Lancs, I've found another Police themed book you may be interested in.

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