Here we go! | Page 234 | Vital Football

Here we go!

i am a tree

Vital 1st Team Regular
Ultimately though, JC21 is right; it is caused by individuals with petrol bombs. We have had peace for nearly 25 years; but the desire to fight as part of a tribe is so ingrained in some that they have never accepted that. Whether the consequences of brexit have actually ignited people (someone more knowledgeable than me would have to tell me how) or has merely provided an excuse for people already committed to violence to do more, is surely open to debate.

The consequences of a vote either way in 2016 were far too vast and unpredictable for even the experts to understand, let alone a member of the public

We were told we should vote leave to support our fishermen. Full disclosure; I didn't give a shit about fishermen, and I voted remain in full cogniscence of that. I didn't give a shit about Mr Farage's notion of sovereignty either. Our voted were as much about what we didn't give a shit about as what we did; leave voters didn't give two figs for my desire to be allowed to live and work abroad.

There is no way we can pin northern Ireland on Brexit voters; it was for the politicians to sort out 100%. That Johnson didn't give a shit about NI in his dealmaking (in contrast to May) was one of the reasons he was able to get his risible deal
I'm sorry but this is just wrong. The first part of this post.
I see it all the time. Using individual responsibility to rationalise terrible decision making on a wider societal level.
The example I would use is if police in one area of the UK came out and said they were no longer going to arrest people for burglary, and burgling went up 800%. You can blame the individuals responsible, because they are the burglars, but you can also blame the police for their actions which were ultimately the cause of the burglaries.
Everybody said that Brexit was going to cause issues in Ireland, and ultimately, Brexit is the cause of the issues we are seeing right now. There is a clear chain of cause and effect. You can pretend it doesn't exist if you want to and blame the individual, but that is to simply ignore half the story.

When it comes to Johnson's risible deal, why do you think he was willing to accept such a terrible deal? Because brexit voters would accept nothing less and he is a serial panderer. It was the electoral maths. He was giving the people what they wanted, so logically, what the people wanted has resulted in the current violence.

Am I blaming Brexit voters? Well, partly. Its mostly the politicians, so we're in agreement on that, but saying that people aren't responsible for the consequences of their votes? Nah, sorry I'm not with you on that at all.
 

i am a tree

Vital 1st Team Regular
Of course, if we trace this back to its roots, it all comes down to the fact that Brexit was not really the public's decision to make in the first place.
The effects were too complex for joe public to understand or be expected to care about. Really what we are seeing is the effect of outsourcing complex governmental decision making to an unqualified public.
 
Of course, if we trace this back to its roots, it all comes down to the fact that Brexit was not really the public's decision to make in the first place.
The effects were too complex for joe public to understand or be expected to care about. Really what we are seeing is the effect of outsourcing complex governmental decision making to an unqualified public.
I mean the roots were English expansionism, planting a new set of people there and a few centuries of oppression.
 

JC21

Vital 1st Team Regular
I'm sorry but this is just wrong. The first part of this post.
I see it all the time. Using individual responsibility to rationalise terrible decision making on a wider societal level.
The example I would use is if police in one area of the UK came out and said they were no longer going to arrest people for burglary, and burgling went up 800%. You can blame the individuals responsible, because they are the burglars, but you can also blame the police for their actions which were ultimately the cause of the burglaries.
Everybody said that Brexit was going to cause issues in Ireland, and ultimately, Brexit is the cause of the issues we are seeing right now. There is a clear chain of cause and effect. You can pretend it doesn't exist if you want to and blame the individual, but that is to simply ignore half the story.

When it comes to Johnson's risible deal, why do you think he was willing to accept such a terrible deal? Because brexit voters would accept nothing less and he is a serial panderer. It was the electoral maths. He was giving the people what they wanted, so logically, what the people wanted has resulted in the current violence.

Am I blaming Brexit voters? Well, partly. Its mostly the politicians, so we're in agreement on that, but saying that people aren't responsible for the consequences of their votes? Nah, sorry I'm not with you on that at all.
So we, as a nation, have to pander to a very small group of terrorists?
 

i am a tree

Vital 1st Team Regular
So we, as a nation, have to pander to a very small group of terrorists?
No, but I can see why you would think I'm saying that.
I wouldn't use Ireland on its own as justification for not Brexiting. I would simply add it to the 'negatives' associated with Brexit. I would also say that rather than insisting on Brexit as soon as possible now, maybe people should have been a bit more patient about how and when the specifics of it were sorted out.
 

i am a tree

Vital 1st Team Regular
It strikes me that if someone as intelligent and articulate as yourself chooses to ignore the actual root causes of the troubles in NI then expecting a chump like Strett to have a handle on the impacts of Brexit is unreasonable.
I guess it comes across as choosing to ignore it, but at the same time I shouldn't have to do a massive essay on the entire historical context of the situation... The conversation was definitely about the effects of Brexit vs individual responsibility.

Like I said I agree with you that in the grand historical scheme of things, the biggest cause of the trouble in Ireland is England being shitty a long time ago... You could say that about alot of worldwide problems tbh, but I find that although that is true, it is now inescapable and the more relevant conversation is how current events and current decisions that are being made are causing further problems.
 

Woanz

Vital Football Legend
I’m sure this was mentioned before the vote that this would cause issues in Northern Ireland.

Problems in Northern Ireland are going to fuck up the U.K. & it’s trade deals & relationship with America as well as it isn’t just Joe Biden who’s American but thinks he’s Irish.

Can’t really try & hold the moral high ground with CHINAAAAA either when we can’t get our own house in order.

Huns don’t deserve any sympathy either as they brought this on themselves, just a shame owd Ian Paisley isn’t around to see everything come crashing down.
 

Lienking

Vital 1st Team Regular
No, but I can see why you would think I'm saying that.
I wouldn't use Ireland on its own as justification for not Brexiting. I would simply add it to the 'negatives' associated with Brexit. I would also say that rather than insisting on Brexit as soon as possible now, maybe people should have been a bit more patient about how and when the specifics of it were sorted out.
A bit more patient ! Waiting 40 years for a vote, then another 4 and a half years for politicians and the EU attempting to deny us the democratic result of that vote !