EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’... | Page 81 | Vital Football

EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’...

markinkent said:
I'll bite.

(1) You get the right to live, work or retire in any EU country. You have benefited from that Valencia more than most.

(2) Freedom of movement. Last year I drove through 5 EU countries on a little road trip. I didn't need a visa for any and I only showed my passport once (at Dover) so no immigration queues (other than Dover and Calais on the way back).

(3) Consumer Protection - I no longer get ripped off for checking the Gills score on my mobile while roaming through the EU - EU law that it is.

(4) Working time directive -- My company can't force me to work excessive hours due to the European working time directive. NB. I need to remind myself of this.

The EU is not perfect, it has many flaws and it never will be perfect but lets keep this balanced and not pretend that there are no benefit to membership.

If I end up queuing even longer at passport control in our "UK special line" (the one with only one desk open) and get stung for data roaming when checking the Gills score I won't be happy.
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Do you really think that British people will be treated that differently ?
Maybe you're a ' glass half empty ' type person.
Or you believe in Wayne's disaster scenario
 
markinkent said:
I'll bite.

(1) You get the right to live, work or retire in any EU country. You have benefited from that Valencia more than most.

(2) Freedom of movement. Last year I drove through 5 EU countries on a little road trip. I didn't need a visa for any and I only showed my passport once (at Dover) so no immigration queues (other than Dover and Calais on the way back).

(3) Consumer Protection - I no longer get ripped off for checking the Gills score on my mobile while roaming through the EU - EU law that it is.

(4) Working time directive -- My company can't force me to work excessive hours due to the European working time directive. NB. I need to remind myself of this.
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This sort of sums up why there is such a divergence in opinion. You start with the "right to live....in any EU country". Personally, I think there are so many beautiful places in the UK (not necessarily in the increasingly overcrowded South East) that I would never consider living elsewhere anyway. Only a small minority of people regularly travel round from country to country in the EU (I understand some never leave Sheppey) and those that do are often worldwide travellers so will already have faced immigration queues anyway. I have sampled Boston airport !

When I have travelled to the EU I have mostly flown and that has always involved getting to Gatwick up to two hours early for every flight, a considerable delay clearing the airport at the other end, and a further delay checking in at the hotel. I think those sort of tiring delays are the reason for the increase in staycations. Would immigration queues make that much difference? Your road trip is probably the rare exception.

As for the working time directive - it is easy enough to adopt it in to UK law and if Labour get in at the next election I am sure that will happen even of the Tories have previously discarded it.

What you have highlighted are inconveniences, not disasters of Titanic proportions (although even I liked Wayne's video)
 
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GillsBluenose said:
This sort of sums up why there is such a divergence in opinion. You start with the "right to live....in any EU country". Personally, I think there are so many beautiful places in the UK (not necessarily in the increasingly overcrowded South East) that I would never consider living elsewhere anyway. Only a small minority of people regularly travel round from country to country in the EU (I understand some never leave Sheppey) and those that do are often worldwide travellers so will already have faced immigration queues anyway. I have sampled Boston airport !

When I have travelled to the EU I have mostly flown and that has always involved getting to Gatwick up to two hours early for every flight, a considerable delay clearing the airport at the other end, and a further delay checking in at the hotel. I think those sort of tiring delays are the reason for the increase in staycations. Would immigration queues make that much difference? Your road trip is probably the rare exception.

As for the working time directive - it is easy enough to adopt it in to UK law and if Labour get in at the next election I am sure that will happen even of the Tories have previously discarded it.

What you have highlighted are inconveniences, not disasters of Titanic proportions (although even I liked Wayne's video)
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I agree with a lot of this. Fuck me, it took two and a half hours to get through border control when I went through JFK two months ago. We had to remain on the plane initially. But even here we still have the rigmarole - St Pancras can be a nightmare. It’s not like we have schengen here.

People are under the impression that if Brexit happens tomorrow then the ‘nasty party’ will take away every right known to man. Some of the laws are good, some are prohibitive and not just to the corporations. Others aren’t as airtight as we think, hence the issues you see in France.

It’s good to be aware of ‘this may happen and that may happen’ but fuck me, we’re going way overboard. This isn’t a Brexit thing, either - imagine the next GE.

Like I said the other day in Twitter: it certainly makes a change to see so many people ‘doing politics’ but with this comes an increasing ignorance and ‘my view is right’. If you’re a brexiteer you’re a gammon. If you’re a remainer you’re a snowflake. If you’re a Tory you’re a toff. If you’re labour you’re let’s not go there. Stop dividing this country with your overbearing views. Who else is fed up?!
 
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GillsBluenose said:
This sort of sums up why there is such a divergence in opinion. You start with the "right to live....in any EU country". Personally, I think there are so many beautiful places in the UK (not necessarily in the increasingly overcrowded South East) that I would never consider living elsewhere anyway. Only a small minority of people regularly travel round from country to country in the EU (I understand some never leave Sheppey) and those that do are often worldwide travellers so will already have faced immigration queues anyway. I have sampled Boston airport !

When I have travelled to the EU I have mostly flown and that has always involved getting to Gatwick up to two hours early for every flight, a considerable delay clearing the airport at the other end, and a further delay checking in at the hotel. I think those sort of tiring delays are the reason for the increase in staycations. Would immigration queues make that much difference? Your road trip is probably the rare exception.

As for the working time directive - it is easy enough to adopt it in to UK law and if Labour get in at the next election I am sure that will happen even of the Tories have previously discarded it.

What you have highlighted are inconveniences, not disasters of Titanic proportions (although even I liked Wayne's video)
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You truly are a little Englander
 
Wayne.Kerr said:
You truly are a little Englander
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If you mean the same as people who were proud to be British and have fought for it in the past (though I would never claim to be as brave as them) then guilty as charged.

I would rather be that way than only look at matters from the perspective of other countries or "unions" and spend my time criticising and undervaluing my country and its interests.
 
The trouble is that “undervaluing my country and its interests” is precisely what remainers think you’re doing particularly as you can’t provide evidence otherwise.
 
GillsBluenose said:
If you mean the same as people who were proud to be British and have fought for it in the past (though I would never claim to be as brave as them) then guilty as charged.

I would rather be that way than only look at matters from the perspective of other countries or "unions" and spend my time criticising and undervaluing my country and its interests.
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Why do you think I'm not proud to be British simply because I don't conform to your very narrow-minded definition of what patriotic means. You might as well pull up the drawbridge.
 
valenciagill said:
Do you really think that British people will be treated that differently ?
Maybe you're a ' glass half empty ' type person.
Or you believe in Wayne's disaster scenario
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We simply don't know. I was responding to the question is there anything good about the EU .

At the moment those rights are protected by EU law. Let's hope they form part of our new relationship but it isn't a given until the details of the new arrangement are agreed.
 
"I'm all right, Jack. Fuck everybody else." is not from one of my posts although Alderman has cunningly made it look as though it is.

However, in the past few years it could have been the quote of the minority that work or spend their time travelling in the EU. If they live there they have the choice of repatriation if Brexit is too unbearable for them.

The net contributions we make come from ALL taxpayers not just them (most that live abroad do not even contribute). ALL our lives are affected by excessive net migration constantly exceeding the government targets that they can not control. ALL of us are affected by EU laws and regulations that are often (not always) contrary to our interests.

I grant you that in the future it might be "the 17.4 million of us are all right, Jack, Fuck the 16.1 million", That's democracy.
 
GillsBluenose said:
I would never consider living elsewhere anyway.

When I have travelled to the EU I have mostly flown and that has always involved getting to Gatwick up to two hours early for every flight, a considerable delay clearing the airport at the other end, and a further delay checking in at the hotel. I think those sort of tiring delays are the reason for the increase in staycations. Would immigration queues make that much difference? Your road trip is probably the rare exception.
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The key point is choice and it's your choice to live in the UK. I was answering the question what's good about the EU.

At the moment we have the choice to live in other EU countries. A few on here have made that choice. That choice is a benefit of EU membership. Whether it's worth all the negatives is another question.

The point is we don't know if that choice will still be there or as easy following the completion of our exit deal.

Hopefully no one wants to face the same level as immigration delay that we get trying to clear US immigration when flying into the EU.

Let's hope they strike a deal to avoid that
 
Wayne.Kerr said:
Why do you think I'm not proud to be British simply because I don't conform to your very narrow-minded definition of what patriotic means. You might as well pull up the drawbridge.
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I will take it all back if you can highlight any of your many posts on this thread that even attempts to look at negotiations from the British point of view and espouses positivity.

All your protestations are based on your presumption that we have no bargaining power and how the mighty EU hold all the cards. That there is no way that their intransigence will cost their innocent citizens dear, in same way as ours, in the short term. Your drawbridge analogy is pertinent as it is now clear that the EU pulled theirs up due to their precious principles and red lines from the start.

First they criticised us for not saying what we want and as soon as we did they accused us of cherry picking.
 
GillsBluenose said:
I will take it all back if you can highlight any of your many posts on this thread that even attempts to look at negotiations from the British point of view and espouses positivity.

All your protestations are based on your presumption that we have no bargaining power and how the mighty EU hold all the cards. That there is no way that their intransigence will cost their innocent citizens dear, in same way as ours, in the short term. Your drawbridge analogy is pertinent as it is now clear that the EU pulled theirs up due to their precious principles and red lines from the start.

First they criticised us for not saying what we want and as soon as we did they accused us of cherry picking.
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It's simple; we're leaving and so we can't dictate terms. We have to negotiate according to the terms of Article 50 but we seemed to take a different approach from day one and look where we are now and even you know that a no-deal is the worst of all situations.
 
Gillsbluenose, Brexiteers were told why what they were trying to achieve was unobtainable over and over again. You’re expecting the EU to risk it’s greatest achievement, the single market, so that the UK can have what it wants. You also carry on treating the EU as if it is a single country. Whilst it’s true that the harm that might be suffered by the EU as a whole will be similar, our pain is all ours. Their pain is split up into 27 far smaller pieces so is much easier for them to manage. That’s why the negotiation always was unequal. Until chequers we hadn’t said what we wanted and it’s clear that it would require the EU to break some fundamental rules of the single market to grant it. Macron and Merkel have said that they both want a deal but not if it undermines the EU. Who can blame them ? Apparently their red lines are ‘precious’. Aren’t ours ?
 
waldo, - how could Davies, Fox, Johnson, Gove etc have got it so spectacularly wrong ? These are supposed to be intelligent politicians !

And of course Theresa May. Hopeless miscalculations when she should have known that the EU would not be able to alter their stance.
 
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The trouble with the politicians you've listed is that they've frankly showed themselves to be a bit dim ! A Tory MP tweeted a picture of himself in Sainsbury's holding some lemons saying that out of the 'EU protectionist racket' the lemons would be cheaper. Unfortunately the lemons were from South Africa and the EU has a 0% tariff on fruit from South Africa. In fact a researcher went through all the fruit on a Sainsbury shelf and couldn't find any from outside the EU that weren't subject to 0% tariff. Of course without a deal many of those items would be subject to tariffs at WTO rates and therefore potentially dearer after Brexit instead of cheaper. What was even sadder was that the original country of origin of this particular MP was Poland !
 
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