D*rby to be relegated? | Page 62 | Vital Football

D*rby to be relegated?

I do not think Mel will get a say in what the assets are sold for; MSD own the debentures.

It will also be totally irrelevant what the book value of both assets are; MSD will sell both as distressed assets just to get their money back.

I think the course of events from now on will be something like:

a) Independent tribunal will make judgement - running concurrently to that will be the Administrators carrying out due diligence on interested parties.

b) Judgement will be passed

c) Administrators will decide who gets access to the books

d) Someone will decide to buy

e) Whoever decides to buy will enter negotiations with MSD

f) New owners get fit and proper validation

g) sale is finalised.

The only grey area is at what point the discussion on the points deduction for the P & S breach will take place.
I thought Mel (or a company owned by him) owned the stadium and training facilities with MSD having a charge securing their debt?

If that’s the case then it’s only if Mel has defaulted on whatever agreement was signed up to that MSD can actually do anything such as force the sale or take ownership.

This is what makes it so messy. Whoever buys Derby will also have to negotiate separately for the ground etc unless Mel has put that company into administration jointly with the club. I must admit that while I know how charges and property ownership works I have no idea whether two separate companies could go into joint administration…
 
From John Percy in the Telegraph...

Special report: Inside Derby County's desperate battle for survival
The clock is ticking on Derby's future and Wayne Rooney is the public face of a club desperately trying to keep itself together

It was approaching the end of a Zoom call from Derby’s administrators last week when Wayne Rooney took control to deliver his own personal message to staff and players.

“Stick together and we will come out of this” was the instruction from Derby’s defiant manager, who is leading from the front as the stricken Championship club face a race against time to avoid liquidation.

The clock is ticking on Derby’s future and Rooney is the public face of a club desperately trying to keep itself together during a crisis, after slipping into administration last month.

Around 15 staff members have been made redundant, the collateral damage of Derby’s situation, and there could be further trouble ahead if a buyer is not found.

Yet Quantuma, the administrators, are adopting an equally resilient tone to Rooney and remain confident that Derby, one of the founder members of the Football League, will be sold before Christmas.

It is a painful situation, complicated further by so many complex strands to any sale, but this is a proud, historic club that needs saving and should never be in this position.

“Derby is a Premier League club in all but status, with a terrific infrastructure, and I think that will be very attractive,” said Carl Jackson, one of Quantuma's lead administrators.

“I have no doubt that we will attract a number of interested parties who have the financial wherewithal and the credentials to fulfil the Football League rules.

“We are currently talking to seven or eight, who have demonstrated to us that they have the funding and the ability to acquire a club of this size.”

Derby remain bottom of the Championship, after being docked 12 points last month, but Rooney is squeezing everything out of his tiny squad: they have been beaten only three times this season, and only once in their last five games.

Championship 2021/22 latest standings (bottom six)
English Football League - Championship
Team P W D L GD Pts
19 Swansea City 11 2 5 4 -5 11
20 Cardiff City 11 3 2 6 -7 11
21 Hull City 11 2 3 6 -7 9
22 Barnsley 11 1 5 5 -7 8
23 Peterborough United 11 2 2 7 -11 8
24 Derby County 11 3 5 3 -1 2

Quantuma are determined to ensure Rooney’s preparations remain unaffected, so cost-cutting on the football side of the business has been kept to a minimum: this week, for example, Derby have provided funds for an overnight stay before Saturday’s game at Preston.

There has been further good news over the past week, with Arsenal agreeing to defer a payment of £1.4 million owed for midfielder Krystian Bielik. Club sponsors 32Red have also accelerated a £300,000 quarterly payment to assist cash-flow.

Despite the departures of respected and popular employees including Shane Nicholson, the first-team fitness coach, operations manager John Barton and head of technical scouting Harry Croft, the general feeling was one of relief and surprise that cuts were not so drastic.

However, the financial situation does remain bleak: they owe £26m to HM Revenue and Customs, which mostly consists of PAYE and National Insurance for players and staff.

American investment group MSD are owed over £15m for a loan, while there is over £10m in transfer instalments due for Bielik and Kamil Jozwiak.

Time is running out before various nightmare scenarios come into play - including player sales in January, pay deferrals and more redundancies.

Jackson said: “The liabilities to the club are significant. The reality is that those debts won’t get paid off in full.

"We need to come up with a proposal which meets the EFL rules in terms of football creditors, and payments to unsecured creditors, which is 25p in a pound, and complies to HMRC who have now got preferential status.

“We must also ensure the MSD secured debt is paid off. We have discussed these numbers with the [interested] parties and it hasn’t frightened them off.

“It’s not easy but with the various sources of revenues coming through we feel we can trade through until Christmas. We hope to be in and out of it by then.”

Quantuma are effectively “vetting” the potential new owners for the Football League, insisting on proof of £5m in order for parties to gain access to Derby’s finances and the data room.

Seven separate groups have signed non-disclosure agreements and one of the most recent to enter serious talks was a consortium led by former Wolves chief executive Jez Moxey, working on behalf of General Sports Worldwide, which includes former Derby chairman Andrew Appleby and former CEO Sam Rush.

American investment firm Carlisle Capital is another interested party and Garry Cook, the former Manchester City CEO, has been in talks with Derby for nearly a year.

Telegraph Sport is also aware of two other parties who have signed NDAs, but will not be naming them at this stage due to confidentiality. Links to former Newcastle owner Mike Ashley have been dismissed.

Derby’s long-running row with the EFL could be pivotal to a sale. The feud was reignited earlier this week after Quantuma lodged an appeal against the club’s 12-point deduction for going into administration.

After receiving legal advice from sports lawyer Nick De Marco, Quantuma are arguing that the punishment is unreasonable due to the impact of Covid-19 on finances.

However, the EFL is said to be shocked at Derby’s appeal as it believes the club’s financial problems clearly pre-date Covid.

There are also suspicions from rival clubs that it is an attempt to reduce the nine-point deduction for historical financial breaches which is also hanging over the club.

Wigan’s own appeal over the punishment for administration was rejected last August, and Derby’s case will be heard by a disciplinary commission within a month.

Against this chaotic backdrop, Rooney is enhancing his reputation as a manager in his first job since retirement.

He has already guided Derby to positive numbers in the table and is revelling in his role as a leader, on and off the field.

If he can somehow navigate a route to safety it will be an outstanding achievement. But for now, Derby are just hoping there is still a club to save.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...side-derby-countys-desperate-battle-survival/
I know a lawyer who met Nick De Marco and thought that he seemed really surprisingly dim, so if he is the reason Derby are appealing, then happy days. If you look him up on Twitter, that impression seems to be confirmed.....
 
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I thought Mel (or a company owned by him) owned the stadium and training facilities with MSD having a charge securing their debt?

If that’s the case then it’s only if Mel has defaulted on whatever agreement was signed up to that MSD can actually do anything such as force the sale or take ownership.

This is what makes it so messy. Whoever buys Derby will also have to negotiate separately for the ground etc unless Mel has put that company into administration jointly with the club. I must admit that while I know how charges and property ownership works I have no idea whether two separate companies could go into joint administration…
I don't know about administration or the mechanics of it, but I would have thought that it is here that Mel Morris's shenanigans https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/pride-park-sale-mel-morris-3290644
over the sale of the ground will come back to wreak terrible consequences. Among the problems that come from Derby selling the ground and now being in administration is that (1) the administrators may have to say that Derby can no longer justify using the stadium, if there is a cheaper one in Belper or somewhere (2) whoever buys the club does not get a stadium (3) Morris may not be able to sell it back to Derby at undervalue without all of the original doubts over the genuineness of the original transaction resurfacing and the EFL having to take the same sort of action that they did against Sheffield Wednesday.
 
I don't know about administration or the mechanics of it, but I would have thought that it is here that Mel Morris's shenanigans https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/pride-park-sale-mel-morris-3290644
over the sale of the ground will come back to wreak terrible consequences. Among the problems that come from Derby selling the ground and now being in administration is that (1) the administrators may have to say that Derby can no longer justify using the stadium, if there is a cheaper one in Belper or somewhere (2) whoever buys the club does not get a stadium (3) Morris may not be able to sell it back to Derby at undervalue without all of the original doubts over the genuineness of the original transaction resurfacing and the EFL having to take the same sort of action that they did against Sheffield Wednesday.
As Mel owns the ground etc he can dictate how much he is willing to sell it for. He could make it clear that all he wants is sufficient to clear the charges and nobody can argue with that other than maybe HMRC.

If he tries to sell for less than the value of the charges, the people holding the charges can object and it wouldn’t do him any favours as they have first dibs on any proceeds until their charges are paid plus he would still owe the difference.

Similarly he can’t just ‘transfer’ ownership unless the new owner agrees to take on the debts or Mel pays them in full.

This is where it gets really messy and where having separate ownership can and will cause problems.
 
I thought Mel (or a company owned by him) owned the stadium and training facilities with MSD having a charge securing their debt?

If that’s the case then it’s only if Mel has defaulted on whatever agreement was signed up to that MSD can actually do anything such as force the sale or take ownership.

This is what makes it so messy. Whoever buys Derby will also have to negotiate separately for the ground etc unless Mel has put that company into administration jointly with the club. I must admit that while I know how charges and property ownership works I have no idea whether two separate companies could go into joint administration…

That will depend on the terms of the loans and who is repaying them; now that both entities are separate from the club, they are only worth nominal amounts.

What is to stop the new owner deciding they do not want to play at Pride Park, or to train at Moor Farm?

Nothing whatsoever.

If that happens, the training ground becomes worthless until someone manages to get the site rezoned for housing; the situation with the ground will be slightly different because they host conferencing and other functions, but they are about to find out that the value of 80m is fucking miles away from its real value.
 
That will depend on the terms of the loans and who is repaying them; now that both entities are separate from the club, they are only worth nominal amounts.

What is to stop the new owner deciding they do not want to play at Pride Park, or to train at Moor Farm?

Nothing whatsoever.

If that happens, the training ground becomes worthless until someone manages to get the site rezoned for housing; the situation with the ground will be slightly different because they host conferencing and other functions, but they are about to find out that the value of 80m is fucking miles away from its real value.
The loans have to be in the name of the person or company who owns the property. If the repayment agreement is being adhered to them no Court will grant a possession order. It’s only if there is a default that the process can begin and even then they have to show that attempts to negotiate have failed.

I would presume there will also be a contract between DCFC and the owners of the ground and/or training ground for upkeep and use of the facilities. There will be break clauses included if so

If there is no contract then you are quite right. Any new owner could choose to build their own training grounds and stadium but would need to find somewhere in the interim.

Messy. Very messy…
 
What a mess. Mel gets no sympathy from me but local suppliers, staff, and fans are in a totally different category.
And unlike a lot of you fellows I hope that the club is bought by a football enthusiast with deep pockets.
The trouble with being an old fogie is that I remember the days when Derby had a first rate side and it was an absolute pleasure to see them play, no matter who the opponent was.
And quite apart from that who are you going to hate instead of them ?
 
What a mess. Mel gets no sympathy from me but local suppliers, staff, and fans are in a totally different category.
And unlike a lot of you fellows I hope that the club is bought by a football enthusiast with deep pockets.
The trouble with being an old fogie is that I remember the days when Derby had a first rate side and it was an absolute pleasure to see them play, no matter who the opponent was.
And quite apart from that who are you going to hate instead of them ?
.
Before BC went to Derby, I honestly didn't know anyone who supported them. I lived in Bramcote, so you might have expected there to be a few that side of Nottingham. In my memory, watching Forest in the 60's, Leicester were our only rivals. Derby were a bit like Notts, they didn't matter.
Derby's success under BC coincided with our own failures in the early 70's and I've hated them ever since. I'd love to see them liquidated and be forced to play in the Northern Counties East league as AFC Derby Rams next season.
 
I don't know about administration or the mechanics of it, but I would have thought that it is here that Mel Morris's shenanigans https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/pride-park-sale-mel-morris-3290644
over the sale of the ground will come back to wreak terrible consequences. Among the problems that come from Derby selling the ground and now being in administration is that (1) the administrators may have to say that Derby can no longer justify using the stadium, if there is a cheaper one in Belper or somewhere (2) whoever buys the club does not get a stadium (3) Morris may not be able to sell it back to Derby at undervalue without all of the original doubts over the genuineness of the original transaction resurfacing and the EFL having to take the same sort of action that they did against Sheffield Wednesday.

Isn't there an alternative scenario, where Mel just rents the stadium to Derby as an interim measure, whilst a buyer is found ? Weren't Coventry in a similar position, where they couldn't even afford the rent and had to play their matches firstly at Northampton and then Birmingham?
 
Isn't there an alternative scenario, where Mel just rents the stadium to Derby as an interim measure, whilst a buyer is found ? Weren't Coventry in a similar position, where they couldn't even afford the rent and had to play their matches firstly at Northampton and then Birmingham?

No, that was not the scenario at Coventry; they played at Northampton and Birmingham because they were in dispute with Arena Leisure in the first instance and the Wasps in the second.

Mel is currently renting the Stadium to Derby; that arrangement will cease with the new owners taking over.

The new owners will not want to pay what Morris wants for either the Ground or the training ground; that will be the first stumbling block.

The fact that there is a debenture on both adds to Mel's problems; there will be a redemption date on both debentures which will put pressure on to Mel - the new owners will be aware of this.

Both debentures add up to around 15m; if I was the new owner I would ring Mel up and tell him I will pay him 15m for both and the offer is open for one week; the price then drops by 1m per day.

If Mel does not agree, let him know you plan to train and play elsewhere, and let him sweat.
 
The loans have to be in the name of the person or company who owns the property. If the repayment agreement is being adhered to them no Court will grant a possession order. It’s only if there is a default that the process can begin and even then they have to show that attempts to negotiate have failed.

I would presume there will also be a contract between DCFC and the owners of the ground and/or training ground for upkeep and use of the facilities. There will be break clauses included if so

If there is no contract then you are quite right. Any new owner could choose to build their own training grounds and stadium but would need to find somewhere in the interim.

Messy. Very messy…

Surely the current contracts become null and void now that the Club are in Admin; that is why a number of the remaining High Street stores apply for CVAs so that they can then renegotiate their rents.

The question is if Mel wants to pump anymore money in; given that both are fairly worthless in the short term that becomes debateable.

Both loans are short term, hence the hideous interest rates, so redemption cannot be far away.
 
Surely the current contracts become null and void now that the Club are in Admin; that is why a number of the remaining High Street stores apply for CVAs so that they can then renegotiate their rents.

The question is if Mel wants to pump anymore money in; given that both are fairly worthless in the short term that becomes debateable.

Both loans are short term, hence the hideous interest rates, so redemption cannot be far away.
The contract will be between DCFC (or their owning company) and the owner of the grounds so I would be shocked if the contract was no longer in place. There may be provision in the contract for administration but that is more likely to rid them together than the opposite.

That being said any new owner, if they don’t buy the grounds, can make a decision to implement the break clauses which usually amount to one year’s rent.

If Mel wants any money back he will have to do it by selling the grounds at which point the charges become due.

There may well be early repayment clauses in the loans but even so the cheapest way forward is for Mel to sell them on quickly and just clear the loans.
 
For those of us not well versed in all this, what story is it telling?

There appears to be a theme of conflicting stories being put into the public domain.

There is this one about the charge on the Ground and then we have the Administrators saying everything is fine, they are running the club as a going concern pending the sale, but the EFL are demanding proof that they have the 13m to finance the Club between now and the end of the season:

This would suggest the EFL have far less confidence that the sale will go through quickly.

 
There appears to be a theme of conflicting stories being put into the public domain.

There is this one about the charge on the Ground and then we have the Administrators saying everything is fine, they are running the club as a going concern pending the sale, but the EFL are demanding proof that they have the 13m to finance the Club between now and the end of the season:

This would suggest the EFL have far less confidence that the sale will go through quickly.

Don’t clubs have to show they have the funds to last the season…?

And what’s the story about the charge on the ground, do you know?
 
Don’t clubs have to show they have the funds to last the season…?

And what’s the story about the charge on the ground, do you know?

Most Football clubs are effectively insolvent and totally depend on the owners largesse; of course, trading in an insolvent state is illegal unless there is a commitment from the owner to fund the club through the next financial year.

That commitment is usually posted in the annual accounts.

It is also a stipulation of the EFL that Clubs must have funding guaranteed.

That commitment ends at the point of Administration and is then restated by the new owners; making the Admin team make a commitment is unusual.

I am not sure why such a heavy handed approach is being taken; if 13m is the magic number to get them through to the seasons end, it is not quite as daunting as it looks.

They should get around half of that figure in gate money despite the first 10k supporters getting in FOC. There will be sponsorship and advertising and TV income which should bring in more money and probably take them up to the 10m mark, what then?

The EFL are effectively saying if the sale is not concluded by the end of the year you WILL be selling players in January.

That is most probably what happens when you waste 300k of creditors money on frivolous and vexatious appeals.