All VAR Discussions Here Please | Page 8 | Vital Football

All VAR Discussions Here Please

Haven’t and won’t watch a game involving them unless it’s against us . Won’t even watch highlights unless they’ve lost and I don’t mind watching the other team . In this case there is more chance of me being struck by lightening down a coal mine than ever seeing it in any form .
Handball in the area by a defending team can be judged as accidental and therefore not handball and not a penalty . Handball in the area by the attacking team which results in a goal, however spuriously , will always be given as handball . If the move doesn’t end up in a goal it can be deemed as not handball. Brilliant eh !
The ‘handball’ by Sissoko in the CL final ( which wasn’t handball then , but as it was against us , it was ) is now not handball, and not a penalty.
Refs and lino’s don’t know now , suddenly, if someone is offside now and play on . It won’t be long until someone gets sent off after a tight offside decision was ignored , all hell will break loose then if it’s found the player was offside and play should have been stopped , except of course if it was against us ! Then nothing will happen . Then the anysortofbias brigade will titter in the gin and tonics after game get together .
If my Aunty Gladys had a pair of balls she’d be me grandad , or something like that .
Somebody I knew once said “it’s a funny old game son “
Shame I dont really understand it anymore. If anyone does , fancy getting together for a G&T, and explaining the beautiful game to me .
Refs have always refused to come on tv after the game to discuss their decisions because they were never deemed to be wrong . They were always correct and nothing would ever change what they said . It was always defended as the heat of the moment, and we all accepted that .
Huh ! Send in the clowns ?.........don’t bother , they’re here! :rant:

Can you imagine the carnage that you'd create post match if a ref came on and had to answer questions about every decision he took that someone believed affected the game?!!

No, it can't happen - ref's would soon realise that being a top-class ref was tantamount to committing suicide in public, it would be utterly unmanageable.

The one big positive of VAR is that it's finally ended most of the disgraceful scenes you'd see when teams literally crowd, push and give verbals to a ref after a decision.

It has also calmed down some of the more blatant tugging and holding in the box at set pieces.

IF the off-side rule can be amended to deal with the stupidity of the measurements to something more reasonable that gave the attacker the advantage, it would make it even better still.
 
Can you imagine the carnage that you'd create post match if a ref came on and had to answer questions about every decision he took that someone believed affected the game?!!

No, it can't happen - ref's would soon realise that being a top-class ref was tantamount to committing suicide in public, it would be utterly unmanageable.

The one big positive of VAR is that it's finally ended most of the disgraceful scenes you'd see when teams literally crowd, push and give verbals to a ref after a decision.

It has also calmed down some of the more blatant tugging and holding in the box at set pieces.

IF the off-side rule can be amended to deal with the stupidity of the measurements to something more reasonable that gave the attacker the advantage, it would make it even better still.
When was the offside law ever changed ? It hasn’t . It’s been adapted to suit VAR which is bringing the game into disrepute.
My point on refs being challenged on tv , which I actually said we all accepted ,and I wasn’t asking for that to be introduced , was that they are now being challenged on tv by their own people DURING the game . They are now not giving the heat of the moment decisions that we all accepted .
Trial by tv now happens during the game and is ruining it ,and , in my personal opinion , making the refs less likely to become top class , as they used to be .
There is no need for a top class ref or lino anymore when a panel does , or can do , the job for them .
The thin end of the wedge has been inserted .
I just wonder how fat the thick end will be
 
Can you imagine the carnage that you'd create post match if a ref came on and had to answer questions about every decision he took that someone believed affected the game?!!

No, it can't happen - ref's would soon realise that being a top-class ref was tantamount to committing suicide in public, it would be utterly unmanageable.

The one big positive of VAR is that it's finally ended most of the disgraceful scenes you'd see when teams literally crowd, push and give verbals to a ref after a decision.

It has also calmed down some of the more blatant tugging and holding in the box at set pieces.

IF the off-side rule can be amended to deal with the stupidity of the measurements to something more reasonable that gave the attacker the advantage, it would make it even better still.

To your first point there, Mike Riley has just shared his self certified metrics and said VAR only made 4 mistakes. So I get your point that we don't want refs being interviewed and all that nonsense, but we do want honesty where you don't constrain both the numerator and the denominator in a pointless metric. For me, it's not even about VAR. It's the taxonomy between the governing bodies and the rulebook and the officials (on pitch or video). Measuring VAR is fruitless as is trying to just pin things on the technology. It's way deeper.

When you think about the extreme example, England vs Cameroon World Cup game, that shone a light on that taxonomy in a big way. FIFA being manipulative, VAR refs advising the on pitch ref to do nothing to keep the peace and totally ignoring the rulebook. On top of that it also shone the light on the censorship that the institution is trying top put on the managers like Phil Neville who quite rightly ignored it and spoke up in an intelligent way.

We've already seen it all this season just toned down a little from the infamous WC match. Yesterday you and I were talking about the referee giving Aurier a second yellow but not awarding their player the same thing in the middle of the park. Walthy talks above about Lascelles losing his footing and wiping out Kane. He didn't mean to but it was still a penalty not given. The NLD incident that we all know would have been a free kick anywhere else on the pitch. Again, penalty not given. It's every match. It's never OK to me to change the rules using VAR as an excuse without formerly changing them. If something is treated differently in the box compared to the rest of the pitch, let's debate it and write it in the rulebook to remove the grey area.

In the bigger picture, I actually want the governing bodies to be as coercive as they can be. I want to see football referees having the same status as rugby referees and footballers well and truly put back into their rightful box. I want to see the technology allow the rules to be upheld and leveraged to bring us back to the pure game. However, I also want the officials to start following the rulebook first to enable that to happen. I sort of thought that enhancing their capabilities with technology and more warm bodies sitting behind it would allow that to happen even knowing some is down to interpretation. We can then turn the dials and learn where to use it for the good of the game. I am less confident in that happening now though as the guiding principles for how the technology is being used just don't seem right, not to mention those stupid self certified metrics.

It does make for a great online conversation though :-)
 
To your first point there, Mike Riley has just shared his self certified metrics and said VAR only made 4 mistakes. So I get your point that we don't want refs being interviewed and all that nonsense, but we do want honesty where you don't constrain both the numerator and the denominator in a pointless metric. For me, it's not even about VAR. It's the taxonomy between the governing bodies and the rulebook and the officials (on pitch or video). Measuring VAR is fruitless as is trying to just pin things on the technology. It's way deeper.

When you think about the extreme example, England vs Cameroon World Cup game, that shone a light on that taxonomy in a big way. FIFA being manipulative, VAR refs advising the on pitch ref to do nothing to keep the peace and totally ignoring the rulebook. On top of that it also shone the light on the censorship that the institution is trying top put on the managers like Phil Neville who quite rightly ignored it and spoke up in an intelligent way.

We've already seen it all this season just toned down a little from the infamous WC match. Yesterday you and I were talking about the referee giving Aurier a second yellow but not awarding their player the same thing in the middle of the park. Walthy talks above about Lascelles losing his footing and wiping out Kane. He didn't mean to but it was still a penalty not given. The NLD incident that we all know would have been a free kick anywhere else on the pitch. Again, penalty not given. It's every match. It's never OK to me to change the rules using VAR as an excuse without formerly changing them. If something is treated differently in the box compared to the rest of the pitch, let's debate it and write it in the rulebook to remove the grey area.

In the bigger picture, I actually want the governing bodies to be as coercive as they can be. I want to see football referees having the same status as rugby referees and footballers well and truly put back into their rightful box. I want to see the technology allow the rules to be upheld and leveraged to bring us back to the pure game. However, I also want the officials to start following the rulebook first to enable that to happen. I sort of thought that enhancing their capabilities with technology and more warm bodies sitting behind it would allow that to happen even knowing some is down to interpretation. We can then turn the dials and learn where to use it for the good of the game. I am less confident in that happening now though as the guiding principles for how the technology is being used just don't seem right, not to mention those stupid self certified metrics.

It does make for a great online conversation though :-)
I would just like referees to referee the game in a professional , proper, unbiased , adult , man to man way . No agendas . None of this i am superior to you attitude .
Search for Roger Kirkpatrick on you tube and see how a game should be managed , with humour but in a professional way . I used to love seeing him referee our games in the sixties .watch his mannerisms and how he controlled situations, explaining to the players what he was giving a decision for .
He didn’t need external help . He was as fit as as the players of the day , not exactly in the same shape though ! Refs back then were only part time . Now we have full time professional referees who need four or five assistants and a back up tv panel . And still can’t get it right .
Tell me how that is progress
 
Game Daily | Bill Edgar
October 1 2019, 12:00pm, The Times
Only 5 per cent of goals are ruled out by VAR – so have a bit more patience
Bill Edgar
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It is easy to forget, amid the perfectly understandable focus on the negatives of VAR, that before this season the Premier League regularly produced “false” results that occurred as a consequence of the rules not being applied. On-field officials were unable to keep track of play completely because it was too fast and complicated; and, because football is a low-scoring game, their resulting mistakes often changed the outcome of matches.

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We are seven rounds into the first Premier League season to feature VAR and the new system is having a significant effect: 14 teams would be in different places in the table were it not for video assistance allowing errors to be corrected, often altering results. For example, Manchester United would be four places higher than they are, and Aston Villa three places better off; Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur would both be three places lower while Southampton would be in the relegation zone rather than 14th. Liverpool and Manchester City would still be first and second, but Jürgen Klopp’s team would be just one point ahead of their big rivals rather than five.

A total of 14 decisions have been overturned by VAR. One of those involved the retake of a penalty, so in itself did not add or remove a goal (the retaken penalty still had to be converted), but the other 13 all saw a goal added (twice) or taken away (11 times). The two added goals both followed the on-field officials wrongly indicating offside; of the 11 struck off, eight were for offside, two for handball and one for a foul. You might not like the rule that says an inadvertent handball by an attacker in the build-up to a goal should be penalised, but rules must be applied consistently and VAR allows that to be achieved more easily.

The main drawback of VAR — as was clear from the moment the idea was raised many years ago — is that goal celebrations of players and fans might become (or have already become) restrained because of the possibility that the on-field referee’s decision could be overturned. The early weeks of VAR in the Premier League have certainly not solved this problem, but context should be considered. There have been 214 occasions when the ball has hit the net and the on-field referee has awarded a goal, so the aforementioned 11 VAR overturns represents a rate of only 5.1 per cent.

There have been times this season where it might have appeared that it was hardly worth getting excited when a goal was scored — a series of VAR overturns in high-profile, televised matches gave the impression to casual football followers that it was happening regularly — but the fact that only about one in 20 goals have been overturned means that goals can still be celebrated with reasonable confidence that they will stand.


Nevertheless, speed is of the essence, so VARs and their technical helpers should practise hard at delivering much quicker verdicts on offside (the most common cause of goals being struck off), which certainly seems an achievable target. It has taken an average of one minute, 23 seconds to overturn the eight goals that were wrongly allowed when an attacker had been offside.

The matter of delays is less important in deliberations over possible penalties — unlike with goals, the award of spot kicks do not prompt wild celebrations that might be diluted by the possibility of VAR intervention — although the quicker the better, of course. The more important issue surrounding penalties is the complete lack of overturns so far this season. VAR has given the green light to all 16 penalties to have been awarded by the on-field referee, while deciding that not one of the many contentious incidents in the box should result in a spot kick.

This is where a radical change might be needed. The VAR should not be required to see a clear and obvious mistake before advising an overturn.

(By the way, the definition of “clear and obvious” is left vague, perhaps deliberately. Does it mean that in the judgment of the VAR ten out of ten referees would give a penalty if they saw the incident clearly, or nine out of ten, or perhaps that the VAR himself is simply in no doubt at all?)

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Aubameyang’s goal last night was only awarded after a referral to VARBradley Ormesher for The Times
Instead the VAR should merely decide that he would have given the penalty himself if he had seen the incident clearly while refereeing on the pitch. He is a Premier League referee himself and we should just accept that it is almost always easier to decide whether a penalty should be awarded if you are a VAR, able to focus on the relevant piece of action from various angles, than if you are the on-pitch official. The same should apply to cases of a potential sending-off. Again, this season there have been no cases of a red card being either withdrawn or imposed after VAR review.

So there are VAR problems to be overcome, but its benefits should not be overlooked. Ultimately, though, the system should be given at least one full season before discussions begin on whether to retain it. Opinions have often changed after the early days of a new rule in football — many initially criticised the introduction in 1992 of the ban on goalkeepers handling a pass from a team-mate, but soon such dissent all but disappeared – so let’s wait before making the decision to overturn VAR itself.
 
Have to say, I almost entirely agree with the article above....

The 11 vs 214 (5%) stat is interesting in itself but the adjusted league table is just marketing bollocks that misleads. It's only looking at a small piece of the complex jigsaw but making out it's the entire picture.

We get the Kane penalties this year (i.e. the ones that would have been an easy free kick on any other part of the pitch) and that's another 4 points minimum in the bag. That metric has been condemned to obscurity by Mike Riley's damn lies and statistics.
 
VAR going in our favour against Watford twice yesterday.

A clear as day penalty Vert should have conceded for a foul on Deulofeu was not given even after a VAR review and the Deli Ali goal should have been ruled out for handball, VAR looked and saw nothing wrong.

So what exactly is the point of VAR if getting the correct decisions isn't really important ?
 
It’s obvious the refs have had enough of VAR and are just going with the refs original decision . As Chiv said , Verts tackle was a penalty and Alli handled the ball , both as clear as day but not given . The only bad decision was the one involving Jonny Evans . No wonder Dyche was fuming .
VAR needs binning asap
 
It’s obvious the refs have had enough of VAR and are just going with the refs original decision . As Chiv said , Verts tackle was a penalty and Alli handled the ball , both as clear as day but not given . The only bad decision was the one involving Jonny Evans . No wonder Dyche was fuming .
VAR needs binning asap

All VAR is doing is shining a light on the problems with the rules, governing bodies and the officials. Long let the pain barrier continue.

I actually felt embarrassed for them this weekend. The credibility net is circling :-)
 
VAR going in our favour against Watford twice yesterday.

A clear as day penalty Vert should have conceded for a foul on Deulofeu was not given even after a VAR review and the Deli Ali goal should have been ruled out for handball, VAR looked and saw nothing wrong.

So what exactly is the point of VAR if getting the correct decisions isn't really important ?

The 'rules' of VAR engagement have to change to eradicate errors like that; the ref made a poor decision, but poorer still was the ref not going to the monitor at teh side of the pitch.

VAR has to be more active when a ref hasn't see the angles and should halt the game for a pitch side monitor review.

- Bet that changes as the season goes on and you'll see more ref's using the monitors.
 
The 'rules' of VAR engagement have to change to eradicate errors like that; the ref made a poor decision, but poorer still was the ref not going to the monitor at teh side of the pitch.

VAR has to be more active when a ref hasn't see the angles and should halt the game for a pitch side monitor review.

- Bet that changes as the season goes on and you'll see more ref's using the monitors.

Agree, but I'm pretty certain the video refs are qualified on field refs. It's intriguing that they can't make these calls even without the on field ref going to his monitor.
 
Agree, but I'm pretty certain the video refs are qualified on field refs. It's intriguing that they can't make these calls even without the on field ref going to his monitor.

I don't know about intriguing lol! It strikes me as the video ref being about as poor at times as the on-field ref. If you're looking at monitors and seeing potential incidents from every angle, there really is no excuses.
 
I don't know about intriguing lol! It strikes me as the video ref being about as poor at times as the on-field ref. If you're looking at monitors and seeing potential incidents from every angle, there really is no excuses.

LOL - so the "intriguing" comment is perhaps conspiracy but comes back to KPI's. We've already seen the audacity of Mike Riley to only admit 4 errors and put that whole spin on their self certified metrics.

That's what's happening with the Delefeo / Vertonghen incident. If the video ref overrules the on field ref, then the latter gets dinged in his metrics for making an on field decision incorrectly. If the VAR doesn't overrule then the incident goes into the numerator and denominator and the KPI's look great.

I think the officials KPI's drive behaviour more than the rules themselves at this point. Just a theory.
 
Another one to put in the “You couldn’t make it up “ file .

VAR allows Man City’s second goal after deliberating whether Sterling was played offside by Silva touching the ball before it entered the net . They deliberated for hours before confirming that Silva had not touched the ball , despite him claiming that he had (!) , therefore Sterling could not be offside .
Then , the PL decide to give the goal to Silva , now saying, after the game had finished, that Silva HAD touched the ball , and the goal was his and not DeBryune’s. Therefore Sterling WAS offside and VAR was wrong .
As I said , you couldn’t make it up .
Is it any wonder I hate VAR , in any form , interfering in football.
 
For the first ninety games of this season , VAR did not award one penalty or red card . This weekend something changed and one red card and four penalties were given as a result of a clear and obvious referee error..

Not once this season has a referee gone to the tv monitor to check an incident.
VAR is allowed to award penalties but is not allowed to adjudicate whether the goalkeeper has broken any of the rules as the penalty is taken .
VAR has made a mockery of the game this weekend by using cameras firstly to adjudicate that David Silva did not touch the ball and thus did not put Sterling in an offside position and then an hour later , using the exact same camera footage, to say that he did touch the ball and therefor award the goal to him and not DeBruyne.
imagine that in a league winning incident at the end of a season .
 
So ….
The refrerres association have come out and said that Sonnys sending off was due to the VAR official saying he needs a red as a result of his reckless challenge.
Not the challenge.
VAR officials are telling refs who to send off and when and for why.....Its a thin line...

Edit.
Imagine if VAR officials (not sanctioned by the referees association) start to decide where decisions fall based on stats on probability. Its an old age adage that 'decisions even themselves out over the course of a season'.
Now we have the danger of a commercial element coming into it. Far be it foe me to say that VAR (Premier League TM) officials want teams such as Leeds in the league rather than Watford....
 
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