All VAR Discussions Here Please | Page 7 | Vital Football

All VAR Discussions Here Please

In the bigger picture, I'm all for it. It just really saddens me that a great piece of technology is being used by humans in a manipulative way rather than to support the rules of the game.

It's also being used to change the rules, without formally changing them. An example of that is delineating what happens in the 18 yard box is clearly treated differently from what happens on the rest of the pitch.

Subtly, it's becoming clear that the ex-players are all scared of speaking up and spend all their time on the fence in commentary and punditry. They are clearly scared of speaking up against the institution and concerned it's a form of biting the hand that feeds them.

The saddest thing of all is that VAR could really bring us closer to the pure form of the game that we all love. It's currently taking us all in the other direction, because of an idiotic minority. It's not your usual normalisation period we see with digital transformation.


I am mainly for it and expect to have to wait for fine tuning. The inconsistency of the reviews is a little annoying . One adjudicator with pressure on making a quick decision for the sake of the flow of the game is a recipe for rushed decisions.
 
I think my point has been proven this week. We now have a scenario where Mike Riley and the FA are measuring themselves on VAR's performance. They have the audacity to say that only 4 mistakes have been made all season. Funny how I keep seeing 4 every match :-)
 
It's like using technology to issue speeding tickets. In 70 mph zone tickets are not issued @70.05 mph. that's what happened y'day. IMO, perhaps VAR should be overruled when the decision is within a %. Or VAR should apply to the Transport Police and install their system for issuing speeding tickets!
 
Just seen the Leicester v Newcastle game and that horrendous tackle that ended with the barcode being sent off . Commentator said that VAR had confirmed that the the red card was the correct decision .
How does that work ? Can you be unsent off if VAR says so. ? Can you be unbooked ?
Would/should VAR be used to check if the ball had gone out for a throw in , in the build up to Auriers second yellow.
Are all refs decisions checked . I didn’t think that was the role of VAR but Mike Riley’s comments (
I think my point has been proven this week. We now have a scenario where Mike Riley and the FA are measuring themselves on VAR's performance. They have the audacity to say that only 4 mistakes have been made all season. Funny how I keep seeing 4 every match :-)
)
seem to say something different . Seems they have checked every decision . Although if they really think there have only been four MISTAKES, then we are in trouble .
 
Just seen the Leicester v Newcastle game and that horrendous tackle that ended with the barcode being sent off . Commentator said that VAR had confirmed that the the red card was the correct decision .
How does that work ? Can you be unsent off if VAR says so. ? Can you be unbooked ?
Would/should VAR be used to check if the ball had gone out for a throw in , in the build up to Auriers second yellow.
Are all refs decisions checked . I didn’t think that was the role of VAR but Mike Riley’s comments

I noticed that as well. If common sense was applied alongside technology in football, the ref should have not held the card up. He should have stopped the game, consulted the video ref and then made sure he was making the correct decision. It shouldn't even be about whether the ref had made a clear and obvious error. Just use the technology like they are with TMO in the Rugby WC for the equivalent thing.

Also, I bet if I watched that game again closely I could find at least 3 other examples of players doing exactly what Aurier did with his second yellow and not getting a card.
 
I might be wrong but feel like they don't go to VAR for yellows (even if 2nd yellow) just for straight reds?
 
I noticed that as well. If common sense was applied alongside technology in football, the ref should have not held the card up. He should have stopped the game, consulted the video ref and then made sure he was making the correct decision. It shouldn't even be about whether the ref had made a clear and obvious error. Just use the technology like they are with TMO in the Rugby WC for the equivalent thing.

Also, I bet if I watched that game again closely I could find at least 3 other examples of players doing exactly what Aurier did with his second yellow and not getting a card.
It actually happened in our game when Harry got pulled back by the the shirt on the halfway line . Winks and Kane both went to the ref and wanted to know why there wasn’t the same yellow that Aurier got . The simulated “ holding the card up” action is not allowed now , but you could clearly see what they were saying .
With refs apparently trying to keep twenty two players on the pitch , common sense should have applied to Auriers second yellow .A stern warning would and should have been applied . I have a conspiracy theory in my head since the MikeDeanGate game that the PMGO have a retribution plan against us. I’m probably totally wrong but little things like this make me wonder .
I agree that pulling a player back by the shirt is a yellow card offence because it’s ungentlemanly, but it can be seen in a different light when it becomes a sending off offence .
Is there a difference in pulling a player back by the shirt , arm ,neck , hair or in Jans case , the shorts round the ankle approach , !
The whole pulling of an opponent is never better seen at corners when refs constantly , week in , week out stop the corner being taken and warn the two protagonists about what they are doing . This alone makes a mockery of the whole law . How many penalties have been awarded for this since the Russian World Cup when it was widely reported that pulling players about was going to be stopped . England benefited twice for this . Since then it has gone back to the same melee every corner , every week .
Rant over
 
I might be wrong but feel like they don't go to VAR for yellows (even if 2nd yellow) just for straight reds?

That's right. It's actually a case where we should back the governing bodies and officials where they choose to be stronger as well. As an example, why did the Newcastle captain Lascelles have to go and pull the sent off player away from the referee and then walk him all the way to the tunnel? For me, that should be an extra 3 match ban immediately. Common sense says that for any red, straight or second yellow, the ref should quickly consult the video ref and make his decision. The player just needs to get off the pitch just like with substitutes. To not use VAR for that is a bit daft but I think you're right in what you say.

Probably still more worried about the inconsistency of how yellows are applied though. Still way too many yellow card offences not being punished because of the conscious /unconscious bias or just incompetence by the referees. That is handing the advantage to the offending players and teams. Saints only got 2 yellows on Saturday. Absolutely impossible if the ref was following the rulebook.
 
It actually happened in our game when Harry got pulled back by the the shirt on the halfway line . Winks and Kane both went to the ref and wanted to know why there wasn’t the same yellow that Aurier got . The simulated “ holding the card up” action is not allowed now , but you could clearly see what they were saying .
With refs apparently trying to keep twenty two players on the pitch , common sense should have applied to Auriers second yellow .A stern warning would and should have been applied . I have a conspiracy theory in my head since the MikeDeanGate game that the PMGO have a retribution plan against us. I’m probably totally wrong but little things like this make me wonder .
I agree that pulling a player back by the shirt is a yellow card offence because it’s ungentlemanly, but it can be seen in a different light when it becomes a sending off offence .
Is there a difference in pulling a player back by the shirt , arm ,neck , hair or in Jans case , the shorts round the ankle approach , !
The whole pulling of an opponent is never better seen at corners when refs constantly , week in , week out stop the corner being taken and warn the two protagonists about what they are doing . This alone makes a mockery of the whole law . How many penalties have been awarded for this since the Russian World Cup when it was widely reported that pulling players about was going to be stopped . England benefited twice for this . Since then it has gone back to the same melee every corner , every week .
Rant over

Don't believe in conspiracy's.

But I recall the incident well - we were all going in nuts at the ref for the lack of a yellow that should have been shown - I think his excuse would probably have been it wasn't looking like a goal scoring opportunity....
 
Don't believe in conspiracy's.

But I recall the incident well - we were all going in nuts at the ref for the lack of a yellow that should have been shown - I think his excuse would probably have been it wasn't looking like a goal scoring opportunity....

I do believe in conscious and unconscious bias though.

Is the goal scoring opportunity thing a formal consideration (rulebook) on that offence? I thought pulling a player back deliberately would be a yellow either way.
 
I do believe in conscious and unconscious bias though.

Is the goal scoring opportunity thing a formal consideration (rulebook) on that offence? I thought pulling a player back deliberately would be a yellow either way.

No it's not, context i.e. circumstances and where on the pitch is taken into consideration - some teams, i.e. Liverpool and ManC play the context incredibly well when forcing a ref to make a decision.

If bias is unconscious, there is little you can do about it except analyzing empirical evidence post game - if it's conscious then it's the job of the assessors to check, question and track decision making, either way at the PL level it can't be hidden.
 
No it's not, context i.e. circumstances and where on the pitch is taken into consideration - some teams, i.e. Liverpool and ManC play the context incredibly well when forcing a ref to make a decision.

If bias is unconscious, there is little you can do about it except analyzing empirical evidence post game - if it's conscious then it's the job of the assessors to check, question and track decision making, either way at the PL level it can't be hidden.

Always been curious to know how high on the referees training curriculum bias training is. It has to be there right?

I know in my career, I've asked myself in so many situations (interviews, meetings etc) whether I'm applying bias. That's what the training is all about. It's not that you are biased, it's that it's unconscious so by challenging yourself you're more likely to make it conscious, remove it and make better decisions.
 
Always been curious to know how high on the referees training curriculum bias training is. It has to be there right?

I know in my career, I've asked myself in so many situations (interviews, meetings etc) whether I'm applying bias. That's what the training is all about. It's not that you are biased, it's that it's unconscious so by challenging yourself you're more likely to make it conscious, remove it and make better decisions.

I think most people accept that unconscious bias exists, and there is no doubt that the PGMOL are fully aware and have steps in place to counter it:

The Select Group Referees meet twice per month for training sessions and analysis of match videos and data.

The PGMOL have their own sports scientists, sports psychologists, physiotherapists, sprint coaches, podiatrists and vision scientists which mirror football clubs to help improve referee performance.

Every PGMOL referee is evaluated by a former senior referee to measure their technical performance, along with fellow players and managers (match delegates) who assess accuracy and consistency of their decision making and management of their game.

Frankly I can't see what more they could do, of course there is anecdotal evidence of more difficulties because of culture i.e.


Referees' calls biased by direction of play
European football referees are more likely to award fouls when an attack is moving from right to left across the field because of the way they are taught to read.
Referees' calls biased by direction of play


A study of referees' decisions found that they have a subconscious bias that leads them to award more fouls when play was moving leftward than towards the right.

The findings raise the possibility that a referee watching the same incident from two different positions may not make the same call each time.

Scientists have previously suggested that people who read languages which are read from left to right are more inclined to be biased against things which move in the opposite direction.

Researchers from the University of Pennsylvania asked 12 members of the University's soccer teams – all of whom were native English speakers – to view a series of on-field incidents and decide whether a foul should be awarded.

They found that participants were more likely to give a foul when the play was moving from right to left, even though the left-to-right images were identical, "flipped" copies of the same incidents.


Alexander Kranjec, of the Neurology Department of the University of Pennsylvania, said: "If the spatial biases we observed in this population of soccer players have similar effects on referees in real matches, they may influence particular officials differently.

"Referees on the field will more frequently be in positions that lower their threshold for calling fouls during an attack, compared to assistant referees working the lines."

Referees are taught to traverse the pitch in diagonal lines, while their linesmen work up and down the sidelines.

The researchers said a referee using a left diagonal line would favour the attacking team, while the defending side would gain an advantage if a right diagonal line was used.

Dr Kranjec said: "There could be an unfair advantage if one team goes into half time with a lead and the referees switch to a right diagonal system in the second half, favouring both defences.

"However, because referees viewing leftward action may be more likely to see a foul when no foul was actually committed, as seemed to be the case when the referee disallowed what should have been the US team's third goal against Slovenia, the bias could work against the offence sometimes."

The study was published in PLoS ONE, the online journal by the Public Library of Science.
 
I think most people accept that unconscious bias exists, and there is no doubt that the PGMOL are fully aware and have steps in place to counter it:

The Select Group Referees meet twice per month for training sessions and analysis of match videos and data.

The PGMOL have their own sports scientists, sports psychologists, physiotherapists, sprint coaches, podiatrists and vision scientists which mirror football clubs to help improve referee performance.

Every PGMOL referee is evaluated by a former senior referee to measure their technical performance, along with fellow players and managers (match delegates) who assess accuracy and consistency of their decision making and management of their game.

Frankly I can't see what more they could do, of course there is anecdotal evidence of more difficulties because of culture i.e.


Referees' calls biased by direction of play
European football referees are more likely to award fouls when an attack is moving from right to left across the field because of the way they are taught to read.
Referees' calls biased by direction of play


A study of referees' decisions found that they have a subconscious bias that leads them to award more fouls when play was moving leftward than towards the right.

The findings raise the possibility that a referee watching the same incident from two different positions may not make the same call each time.

Scientists have previously suggested that people who read languages which are read from left to right are more inclined to be biased against things which move in the opposite direction.

Researchers from the University of Pennsylvania asked 12 members of the University's soccer teams – all of whom were native English speakers – to view a series of on-field incidents and decide whether a foul should be awarded.

They found that participants were more likely to give a foul when the play was moving from right to left, even though the left-to-right images were identical, "flipped" copies of the same incidents.


Alexander Kranjec, of the Neurology Department of the University of Pennsylvania, said: "If the spatial biases we observed in this population of soccer players have similar effects on referees in real matches, they may influence particular officials differently.

"Referees on the field will more frequently be in positions that lower their threshold for calling fouls during an attack, compared to assistant referees working the lines."

Referees are taught to traverse the pitch in diagonal lines, while their linesmen work up and down the sidelines.

The researchers said a referee using a left diagonal line would favour the attacking team, while the defending side would gain an advantage if a right diagonal line was used.

Dr Kranjec said: "There could be an unfair advantage if one team goes into half time with a lead and the referees switch to a right diagonal system in the second half, favouring both defences.

"However, because referees viewing leftward action may be more likely to see a foul when no foul was actually committed, as seemed to be the case when the referee disallowed what should have been the US team's third goal against Slovenia, the bias could work against the offence sometimes."

The study was published in PLoS ONE, the online journal by the Public Library of Science.
That’s really interesting Ex . When I was refereeing Lads League football I would instruct the linesmen , if I was lucky enough to have them , to take the right backs position and change ends at half time . I’ve noticed this doesn’t happen anymore . The “linesmen” stay on the same line for both halves .
 
Don't believe in conspiracy's.

But I recall the incident well - we were all going in nuts at the ref for the lack of a yellow that should have been shown - I think his excuse would probably have been it wasn't looking like a goal scoring opportunity....
Maybe conspiracy is the wrong word , but has anybody given, can anybody give, a satisfactory explanation of Harry Kane being taken out by a flying head/shoulder butt against the barcodes, not given as a penalty .
Under what law was that judged as being a legal challenge .
It was obviously reviewed by the dreaded VAR which agreed with the refs decision . How can that make sense . Conscious, unconscious, any sort of bias .
If anybody can give me a rational explanation of that incident I would be eternally grateful
 
Maybe conspiracy is the wrong word , but has anybody given, can anybody give, a satisfactory explanation of Harry Kane being taken out by a flying head/shoulder butt against the barcodes, not given as a penalty .
Under what law was that judged as being a legal challenge .
It was obviously reviewed by the dreaded VAR which agreed with the refs decision . How can that make sense . Conscious, unconscious, any sort of bias .
If anybody can give me a rational explanation of that incident I would be eternally grateful



Has the VAR ref ever overturned the onfield refs decision yet this season , I can't think of one example but I can think of loads of examples where he should have done.

Old boys club , can't upset his mate on the pitch can he, the whole thing is pathetic.
 
Hahahaha right on cue Gary Neville has just said he'd like to know what you've got to do to get an onfield decision overturned by VAR !!!!!!!!!!

Scum player clearly handled the ball in his own area, ref didn't give it so VAR doesn't either.
 
Hahahaha right on cue Gary Neville has just said he'd like to know what you've got to do to get an onfield decision overturned by VAR !!!!!!!!!!

Scum player clearly handled the ball in his own area, ref didn't give it so VAR doesn't either.

Hasn’t VAR just handed manure a goal against the decision of the officials !? Lol !
 
Ref didn't blow for offside, the same thing happened in a game at the weekend.
Haven’t and won’t watch a game involving them unless it’s against us . Won’t even watch highlights unless they’ve lost and I don’t mind watching the other team . In this case there is more chance of me being struck by lightening down a coal mine than ever seeing it in any form .
Handball in the area by a defending team can be judged as accidental and therefore not handball and not a penalty . Handball in the area by the attacking team which results in a goal, however spuriously , will always be given as handball . If the move doesn’t end up in a goal it can be deemed as not handball. Brilliant eh !
The ‘handball’ by Sissoko in the CL final ( which wasn’t handball then , but as it was against us , it was ) is now not handball, and not a penalty.
Refs and lino’s don’t know now , suddenly, if someone is offside now and play on . It won’t be long until someone gets sent off after a tight offside decision was ignored , all hell will break loose then if it’s found the player was offside and play should have been stopped , except of course if it was against us ! Then nothing will happen . Then the anysortofbias brigade will titter in the gin and tonics after game get together .
If my Aunty Gladys had a pair of balls she’d be me grandad , or something like that .
Somebody I knew once said “it’s a funny old game son “
Shame I dont really understand it anymore. If anyone does , fancy getting together for a G&T, and explaining the beautiful game to me .
Refs have always refused to come on tv after the game to discuss their decisions because they were never deemed to be wrong . They were always correct and nothing would ever change what they said . It was always defended as the heat of the moment, and we all accepted that .
Huh ! Send in the clowns ?.........don’t bother , they’re here! :rant: