All VAR Discussions Here Please
- Thread starter Spursex
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muttley
Alert Team
As someone that has managed very large technology change in my career, here's my honest opinion on VAR and offside.
As a business stakeholder you sit down with a technology team and you give them your business requirements. You explain to them that with offside there are 2 pieces to it. The first bit is whether a player is in an "offside position". You explain that you need to be over the halfway line and that they need to exclude the hands and arms. You explain that they need to be closer to the goal-line than the second last opponent. You explain that if you're level you're not in an "offside position". As you continue the conversation you explain that the reason you establish the "offside position" first is because the next part of the process is to establish whether it is an "offside offence" when the ball is played or touched. Ultimately, you give them the official rules, write business requirements with them or for them and ultimately provide the outcome you are trying to achieve with them.
So the technology vendor goes away with your business requirements and comes back with a proposed solution before building anything. They paint the picture of what they are going to provide you with costs, timelines etc and look for a sign-off to move to a development phase. You'd typically be working within a stated technology development methodology (Waterfall, AGILE etc).
It's at this point that EITHER (1) the tech vendor declares that they can't accommodate "level" in their proposed solution and request a scope change OR (2) you as the business capture the flaw in the walkthrough and don't approve the solution. By accepting the scope change (1), you have to go back and change the business requirement which in this case would be with IFAB as an eventual official rule change removing level from the laws. In (2), the technology vendor would need to offer a modfied or new proposal as you insist that the business requirements are met. There could be a second or even third iteration where the proposed solution is changed until you are willing to sign off. You might also accept that the "level" solution comes along in a later release to hit current deadlines.
So here's my big beef here.
I'm astounded that people are discussing the "level" discrepancy up to 5 years after it should have been caught in a very straight-forward business requirements / solutions process. It is not as if FIFA and UEFA are declaring now that they've known for a long time about the "level" problem and have a documented plan already in place. It's not as if IFAB have got the gang together and removed "Level" from the laws either.
Therefore, I'm with PGMOL on this one. As a customer of the technology solution, they should feel totally empowered to push back on FIFA / UEFA on the VAR technology. It contradicts the very laws they are being asked to implement. In my opinion, they are perfectly within their rights to pull the offside piece out until they are given something that works by FIFA.
As a business stakeholder you sit down with a technology team and you give them your business requirements. You explain to them that with offside there are 2 pieces to it. The first bit is whether a player is in an "offside position". You explain that you need to be over the halfway line and that they need to exclude the hands and arms. You explain that they need to be closer to the goal-line than the second last opponent. You explain that if you're level you're not in an "offside position". As you continue the conversation you explain that the reason you establish the "offside position" first is because the next part of the process is to establish whether it is an "offside offence" when the ball is played or touched. Ultimately, you give them the official rules, write business requirements with them or for them and ultimately provide the outcome you are trying to achieve with them.
So the technology vendor goes away with your business requirements and comes back with a proposed solution before building anything. They paint the picture of what they are going to provide you with costs, timelines etc and look for a sign-off to move to a development phase. You'd typically be working within a stated technology development methodology (Waterfall, AGILE etc).
It's at this point that EITHER (1) the tech vendor declares that they can't accommodate "level" in their proposed solution and request a scope change OR (2) you as the business capture the flaw in the walkthrough and don't approve the solution. By accepting the scope change (1), you have to go back and change the business requirement which in this case would be with IFAB as an eventual official rule change removing level from the laws. In (2), the technology vendor would need to offer a modfied or new proposal as you insist that the business requirements are met. There could be a second or even third iteration where the proposed solution is changed until you are willing to sign off. You might also accept that the "level" solution comes along in a later release to hit current deadlines.
So here's my big beef here.
I'm astounded that people are discussing the "level" discrepancy up to 5 years after it should have been caught in a very straight-forward business requirements / solutions process. It is not as if FIFA and UEFA are declaring now that they've known for a long time about the "level" problem and have a documented plan already in place. It's not as if IFAB have got the gang together and removed "Level" from the laws either.
Therefore, I'm with PGMOL on this one. As a customer of the technology solution, they should feel totally empowered to push back on FIFA / UEFA on the VAR technology. It contradicts the very laws they are being asked to implement. In my opinion, they are perfectly within their rights to pull the offside piece out until they are given something that works by FIFA.
Have you been around Greavsie’s house !Parrott is great playing on the shoulder.
he has missed out on one there . That’s actually funny !
So why have they , PGMOL, decided to go their own route , not to use the monitors , not to give decisions and rely on the bloke in the park to run the game retrospectively . It doesn’t make sense .
What would make sense would be not to use it at all in the premier league and let everyone else experiment with it until there is an agreed agenda .
we would have no option but to use it in Europe .
There was a bizarre situation where it was used in the fa cup in the first game but not in some replays depending on which ground was being used . Or vice versa .
Liverpool and M. Utd still don’t have giant tv screens so their supporters and those of the visiting clubs are still denied information on what is going on .
It’s just a mess . It needs binning
muttley
Alert Team
So I was talking about one specific piece, offside, and the root cause of why onside has become offside because of technology. For the ref to run to another screen and confirm that there is a blue and red line and the implementation by FIFA doesn't support level being onside is of no value to anyone. That is why I was careful to write "they are perfectly within their rights to pull the offside piece out" when talking about PGMOL. So the offside piece of it is totally on FIFA for a poor solution being delivered got PGMOL.
Of course, the other pieces that VAR is used for are up for debate. The "is it / ins't it a penalty?" debate rages. It's not FIFA's fault that PGMOL aren't competent enough to follow the rules of the game and also too stubborn to use the screens. Whilst I have sympathy with PGMOL for the offside rules, I have none on those pieces. It's worth considering that even if the ref did use the pitch side monitor would that change their poor decision making chatting to their mate at Stockley? I don't think it would especially as the guy at Stockley is sharing the same metrics as the guy in the middle of the pitch. If you have a dodgy organisation like PGMOL, then there is no motive for one to overrule the other.
Another major root cause that I've mentioned a bunch of times is the "clear and obvious" guideline. Those words just allows everyone to cheat the actual rules.
So I'm not in favour of pulling every piece of VAR out yet, but I think FIFA needs to show some humility on their poor technology implementation and change management process. PGMOL need to right their ship as well. Otherwise, we will all keep on suffering as fans, not to mention the players themselves. We absolutely must not stop debating it though until it is fixed.
Big Chiv
Vital Football Legend
https://www.skysports.com/share/
wengers proposals ruled out for this months law change meeting ! Surprise surprise . What was he thinking of
wengers proposals ruled out for this months law change meeting ! Surprise surprise . What was he thinking of
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R
Removed at own request
Guest
This could kill football as entertainment.
You will have defences dropping deeper and deeper
Changing another rule because if VAR
D
Departed
Guest
muttley
Alert Team
Worth remembering that all Azpilicueta felt was firstly, Gio's body weight, and secondly, Gio's body weight reducing as his other foot landing which allowed him to reduce the pressure.
VAR can say what they want. They have no credibility left anyway. Anyone that has ever played football knows that if Gio wanted to hurt the Chelsea payer then he could have easily done. He chose not to and stopped the Chelsea player from getting hurt. Azpilicueta was sprinting on the cover defensively within 2 mins and made a total meal of it.
This is what makes me sick about football nowadays.
Yeah I was shocked...utterly shocked it wasn't red...and then he didn't even get booked at all!!! LOL
CLOWNSHOW!!!
Matic
Alert Team
I personally think it was a yellow... but no way a red. Lo Celso was just trying to throw his body in the way of the incoming challenge and that Chelsea twat came in at pace and sort of went underneath an already in motion Lo Celso.
For the VAR officials to say that so openly was hugely unprofessional. If we had gone on to draw or win what would have happened then? Would Chelsea have had a case to contest the result, because we all know they are petty enough to do something like that.
For the VAR officials to say that so openly was hugely unprofessional. If we had gone on to draw or win what would have happened then? Would Chelsea have had a case to contest the result, because we all know they are petty enough to do something like that.
muttley
Alert Team
Lamps has said it was a leg breaker and therefore a red card. Well here's a question. If it was a leg breaker, why hasn't Azpilicueta got a broken leg? It's not as if he could jump the challenge or take the force with his feet off the ground. Therefore, how can it be a leg breaker?
Big Chiv
Vital Football Legend
Another couple of “human errors “ by the same bloke in the park in the Leics v MC game . Leics lose out twice . Anyone think that if that was a Lloris challenge on anybody like that it would have been a penalty ?
And the Debruyne handball . !!!
total waste of time having people like that in charge
And the Debruyne handball . !!!
total waste of time having people like that in charge
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
I'm not sure Loco meant that stamp. It looks that way in slow mo but it happened so fast. All of a sudden the chavs leg was under Locos foot as Loco was trying to trap the ball.
Matic
Alert Team
So, another thing that really pissed me off was Giroud's goal. Earlier in the season we had one or maybe two very important goals ruled offside by VAR by a shoulder being millimetres offside, and I mean that literally. Today I thought it was fairly clear that Giroud's shoulder was fractionally offside and VAR didnt even dwell on it. They didnt get their little line tool up on screen and make us wait until they were sure. It was a quick eye balling of it and ruled onside.
The inconsistency with VAR this season has been nothing short of embarrassing. Mourinho was quite right to call VAR into question in his post match today asking why VAR didnt make any similar statements when we were the victims of their lack of decisions. VAR needs to die now.
The inconsistency with VAR this season has been nothing short of embarrassing. Mourinho was quite right to call VAR into question in his post match today asking why VAR didnt make any similar statements when we were the victims of their lack of decisions. VAR needs to die now.
B
Bienvenu17
Guest
I haven’t re-watched it (since the 20 times shown on the broadcast) but to me it looked like Lo was out of balance and had to put his foot down, which unfortunately ended up being one of that smug ****’s players. No harm no foul.
I think the big problem yesterday was the bloke sat in front of the monitors . It was commented on that he was a fairly new addition to the “Premier”’(and I use that term very loosely) list and may have been reticent to overturn or assert his views on senior refs . They are not my thoughts but those of the pundits in the BT studio. It was remarked that he had 50 premier games experience whilst Michael Oliver had over 250 games . The lack of experience certainly showed with the release of the “ human error “ statement . They must be cringing on the Stockley Park bench . What a can of worms that can open up .
There were other glaring errors yesterday , Matics comment on Giroud being offside . He was deemed offside against Utd on Monday but not against us . Similar incidents with the same amount of “ offsideness” ( I think I’ve made up a new word there ?) have been poured over for minutes and minutes and given offside .Maybe they didn’t want to incur Lampards wrath again , after his midweek rants , The Lo Celso Stamp , I’m still of the opinion it was a red but obviously a lot of you don’t ,. Oliver’s entire handling of the game was atrocious, he let far too much go unpunished and allowed niggles to expand to far worse “contests” . The push in the back now seems to go unpunished and the the fake claim and subsequent dive of a push in the back now gets rewarded , with commentators saying how “ he cleverly won the free kick by inviting contact “ . Refs must a get a grip of games , they are losing control by allowing the cameras to do their job too much and it’s creeping into their general decision making .
The other TV game was even worse . Debruynes hand ball conformed to all the new guidelines of handball , as debuted , and kindly demonstrated, by Sissoko in Madrid , but was ignored by the ref and Var .Exactly how could that be ignored , was it accidental ? Was it a normal position of the hands ?
. How on Earth was the keepers “taking out” of Inheacho not looked at .I don’t think it was even a corner , as given by the ref , the keeper was nowhere near the ball . He just took him out but it wasn’t even looked at .
Then there was Walkers assault on the Leicester left back . Can anyone tell me that wasn’t reckless . He came steaming in , got the ball, i admit , but took the player totally . Just got ignored .
VAR hasn’t had many , if any , good days but yesterday was a bad one . I’ve heard there were other stupid incidents as well in other games . Haven’t seen those , kept well away from MoTD
