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All VAR Discussions Here Please

So the VAR in the women’s World Cup WAS a trial then when everyone said it wasn’t .



VAR will not re-referee Premier League - referees' chief Mike Riley
By Ian Dennis
BBC Radio 5 live senior football reporter
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VAR was used at the Women's World Cup in France
The Premier League will not be re-refereeing the game by VAR and will set a high bar for decisions, says referees' chief Mike Riley.
Video assistant referees will be used in the Premier League from the start of the new season, after clubs agreed to their introduction.
Riley and his team of referees have spent the past two years preparing and training all the match officials, including live trial matches, and have been encouraged by the progress they have made.
However, he stressed that VAR is still a work in progress. "It will take us two or three years to get this right," said Riley, who is general manager of the Professional Game Match Officials Limited.
He said there had been a "reaction" to some uses of VAR at the Women's World Cup in France, but across Europe in other competitions it had been implemented successfully.
"You look at the work in Italy, you look at the work in Spain, the Netherlands and in Germany latterly, and the more people get familiar with the process and work out how to harness it for the game I think the more comfortable people feel,"
The key area for implementation of VAR in the Premier League is the height of the threshold to change original decisions, and Riley believes working out when to intervene is the main challenge for the game as a whole, not just for referees.
"Where VAR has been implemented successfully in other competitions it's been a very high bar," he said.
"We don't want VAR to come in and try to re-referee the game. We actually want it to protect the referees from making serious errors, the ones everybody's goes: 'Well, actually, that's wrong.'
"If we keep to that really high bar there is more chance of keeping the flow of the game, the intensity of the game and people enjoying the spectacle of it rather than constantly referring to the video screen for changing decisions."
During their trials in the Premier League last season - up to week 33 - there were eight checks on average, with the average check lasting 29 seconds.
Riley stressed the key to successful implementation of the system is communication.
"The way we get it right is by everyone in the game talking: players, managers, referees, fans, broadcasters. We'll all have an opinion, it's all valid," he said.
"Between us, let's work out where we set that intervention. If we do that we'll create something that's really good for our game.
"At the forefront of our minds all the time are two things: minimum interference for maximum benefit, and to maintain where possible the flow, intensity and speed of the game, because that's what people want to watch in Premier League football."
Other areas of debate from the Women's World Cup include the new laws surrounding handball, but Riley does not believe it is a problem in England.
"I actually think handball is in a really good place in this country, and that's the message that we get from all the clubs - from the managers and the players - when we go and talk to them.
"We have a philosophy that says we want handball to be something that has an impact on the game.
"We are not looking for the ball to be striking arms and we do accept, when we are looking for what is an unnatural position for the arm, that arms move. We don't expect players to defend with their arms behind their back, nor do we expect forwards to try and drill the ball to the hand to win a free-kick.
"The way we've actually implemented handball for the past two or three seasons is the way we are going to continue to do it in the future."
He said, as an example, that the winning penalty for the Netherlands against Japan at the Women's World Cup would not have been awarded in the Premier League.
"We consider that to be a natural position of the hand. You don't expect defenders to have their arms glued to their side, so if the hand is in a natural position then it's not an offence," he said.

And that goes against the new handball laws that have just been introduced this summer .
 
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Llorente’s goal against city in the CL will not be given in Europe but will be allowed in the competition that gets you into the Champions League . You couldn’t make it up !.
Mike Riley is talking bollocks . We will not be allowed to bend the laws to suit ourselves . It’s getting beyond a joke
 
July 8 2019, 12:00pm, The Times
English approach will paint VAR in a brighter light
Martyn Ziegler, Chief Sports Reporter
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Care must be taken to ensure that VAR does not become a “monster which destroys the joy of the game”, as The Times’ chief football writer Henry Winter succinctly put it at the weekend.

Even the most passionate adherent of video assistant referees would have some sympathy with that viewpoint, and so the approach by the Premier League’s referees chief for VARs to intervene as little as possible when the system is introduced next month should be welcomed as pure common sense.

Of course, critical voices have already been raised about the English approach — referees can usually do little right in the eyes of a football fan — but as VAR is here to stay, then the discussion should now be around how it is implemented.

The biggest risk of using VARs was always and is still seen as its potential to disrupt the game, and we saw plenty of occasions during the Women’s World Cup when the delays appeared to be unnecessary. The arrival of VAR and the introduction of the new handball law caused something of a perfect storm and led to a rash of penalties at the tournament.

The Professional Games Match Officials Ltd (PGMOL) will implement the new law but continuing to view it more leniently than has been the case on the continent and in the Champions League.

Mike Riley, the PGMOL managing director, says there will need to be an apparent intent by a player to use his arm to extend the body as a barrier, rather than simply using it for balance.

That will mean fewer penalties for handball in the Premier League than we have seen in the Champions League and the Women’s World Cup.

Most fans and observers who saw Japan concede a crucial penalty to Holland for a handball offence that would not be penalised in the Premier League next season would surely welcome that.

The decision to advise referees not to view incidents on pitchside monitors unless in exceptional circumstances is also aimed at reducing VAR-related delays, as is the advice that on-field officials should judge the goalkeeper’s position at penalties rather than the VAR.

Critical voices suggest that these measures will promote a lack of consistency and that England should be absolutely in line with the rest of the world in case the players struggle when they play in Europe or in international matches.

But there was never that consistency before, and few if any English clubs would want it now. The spectacle of the Premier League as a fast-flowing, physical, all-guns-blazing contest is one which has grabbed the attention of fans across the globe: mess with that at your peril.

There will still be occasions where fans and writers will fume over an attacker’s toe being judged offside but that is a black-and-white decision similar to that taken by goalline technology.

At the Women’s World Cup there was a VAR review on average every 1.6 matches. In the Premier League, there will probably be one only every five matches. Two-thirds of the World Cup reviews include on-pitch review by the referee often causing a delay of three or four minutes — that will not happen in the English game.

The Premier League has been the most cautious of all the major competitions in Europe when it comes to VAR — while almost all who could afford to do so embraced it a year ago, in England the referees’ body has taken its time.

In hindsight, that was probably a wise move. The only reason for having VARs should be to enhance the game, make decisions fairer, and to support on-field referees rather than making them obsolete.

The approach being taken in the Premier League should provide the best chance of that succeeding and for VAR to be judged football’s saviour rather than its foe.
 
It’s a terrible idea but it’s too late to go back.

Common sense approach was to realise it but by bit

Start with off sides and perfect it - with an umpires call style system.

We are now changing rules for VAR
 
The problem is not just VAR but the rules themselves, handball and offside being the two main culprits...as far as offside is concerned the only part of the current law that needs changing is that which rules any part of the body in front of the last defender means offside eg: a toe, a hand and for the ladies on a cold day a nipple.

Also, during the WC trial I didn’t see VAR used to sort out the shirt pulling and general rugby scrum tactics used at corner kicks.
 
My thoughts based on the experiences of the last 18 months are as follows:

1) Fundamentally, VAR should be used to support the official rules of the game with the spirit of Fair Play, not to cover the arses of referees who very visibly refuse to use those rules.
2) Referees will make honest mistakes. They always have done and always will. Having technology backing them up will reduce these errors. Fans, players, managers etc should remember that.
3) The way the technology measures offside now at the point the ball is kicked needs a 20-30cm adjustment. Being 2cm offside in pure terms is stupid. They need to show through technology that a player is "clearly" offside and that is about 20-30cm adjustment of the calculation.
4) Where finances allow, get the screens and audio in the stadium like we have with cricket and rugby. That will keep the fans more included and help with the buy-in.
5) Remove the screen for the ref in the stadium. It's pointless. The video ref should be getting off the fence and making that call.
6) There should never be a scenario where the Video ref and the on-field official should be ignoring what the technology is saying just to keep the peace. For those who saw the women's Cameroon game, that was FIFA cheating their own implementation of technology. Elbows, spitting, leg breakers etc should never be ignored just to keep 22 players on the pitch.

As for whether countries should go it alone and implement a slightly adjusted version then I'm OK with that for a period of one season only. Like the hands in a natural / unnatural position debate, that country FA should have one season to trial it differently compile results and recommendations and bring it back to FIFA. It should go to a vote once a year with all countries voting rather than the BS we see today where all FIFA do is command and control and continuously make decisions from behind a desk.

My final thought is stick with it. You'll never see any technology implementation of any magnitude without normalisation challenges. VAR has the ability to get us back closer to the pure game of football if used correctly.
 
muttley said:
My thoughts based on the experiences of the last 18 months are as follows:

1) Fundamentally, VAR should be used to support the official rules of the game with the spirit of Fair Play, not to cover the arses of referees who very visibly refuse to use those rules.
2) Referees will make honest mistakes. They always have done and always will. Having technology backing them up will reduce these errors. Fans, players, managers etc should remember that.
3) The way the technology measures offside now at the point the ball is kicked needs a 20-30cm adjustment. Being 2cm offside in pure terms is stupid. They need to show through technology that a player is "clearly" offside and that is about 20-30cm adjustment of the calculation.
4) Where finances allow, get the screens and audio in the stadium like we have with cricket and rugby. That will keep the fans more included and help with the buy-in.
5) Remove the screen for the ref in the stadium. It's pointless. The video ref should be getting off the fence and making that call.
6) There should never be a scenario where the Video ref and the on-field official should be ignoring what the technology is saying just to keep the peace. For those who saw the women's Cameroon game, that was FIFA cheating their own implementation of technology. Elbows, spitting, leg breakers etc should never be ignored just to keep 22 players on the pitch.

As for whether countries should go it alone and implement a slightly adjusted version then I'm OK with that for a period of one season only. Like the hands in a natural / unnatural position debate, that country FA should have one season to trial it differently compile results and recommendations and bring it back to FIFA. It should go to a vote once a year with all countries voting rather than the BS we see today where all FIFA do is command and control and continuously make decisions from behind a desk.

My final thought is stick with it. You'll never see any technology implementation of any magnitude without normalisation challenges. VAR has the ability to get us back closer to the pure game of football if used correctly.
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On the offside rule, I would prefer there to be daylight between the alleged attackers and defender, except in the case of players returning from an offside position....just my opinion.
 
I’m ok with trials to see what issues there are with new laws and VAR being used to control them , but it’s absolute madness to allow different associations to have different interpretations of the way the game is regulated and officiated . It’s also not right to have these trials , which is what they seem to be , at World Cup finals and premier leagues .
Handball in the Ivory Coast has to be the same as handball on the south coast . There simply cannot be different interpretations .

Offside by two inches of a players boot is not offside . It never has been . Benefit of doubt has always gone to the attacker .

Suddenly VAR is being used to retrospectively control the game . We were told that was not what it was about . It was introduced to correct clear and obvious errors by officials . They said .
What I have seen lately is refs not making decisions , standing around looking stupid until someone behind a monitor tells them what happened and what to do about it.
Then they run around , all hung ho , making stupid hand signals and blowing the bloody whistle for all their might . Like some eighteenth century actor on the stage at a pantomime .
Gesturing that they now know exactly what has gone on and that suddenly they are back in charge and all self important . What bollox!
If that is the way forward then I’m going out to buy a hat and eat it .

I’m sure Mike Riley has it all under control and it will all be sweetness and light . The sun will always shine and nothing controversial will happen throughout the whole season .
 
Walthamstow wanderer said:
I’m ok with trials to see what issues there are with new laws and VAR being used to control them , but it’s absolute madness to allow different associations to have different interpretations of the way the game is regulated and officiated . It’s also not right to have these trials , which is what they seem to be , at World Cup finals and premier leagues .
Handball in the Ivory Coast has to be the same as handball on the south coast . There simply cannot be different interpretations .

Offside by two inches of a players boot is not offside . It never has been . Benefit of doubt has always gone to the attacker .

Suddenly VAR is being used to retrospectively control the game . We were told that was not what it was about . It was introduced to correct clear and obvious errors by officials . They said .
What I have seen lately is refs not making decisions , standing around looking stupid until someone behind a monitor tells them what happened and what to do about it.
Then they run around , all hung ho , making stupid hand signals and blowing the bloody whistle for all their might . Like some eighteenth century actor on the stage at a pantomime .
Gesturing that they now know exactly what has gone on and that suddenly they are back in charge and all self important . What bollox!
If that is the way forward then I’m going out to buy a hat and eat it .

I’m sure Mike Riley has it all under control and it will all be sweetness and light . The sun will always shine and nothing controversial will happen throughout the whole season .
Click to expand...


Excellent.

:clap:
 
Harry-Kari said:
On the offside rule, I would prefer there to be daylight between the alleged attackers and defender, except in the case of players returning from an offside position....just my opinion.
Click to expand...

I would say only if it can be measured that way using technology. Normally we would say daylight means between the torsos of the 2 players. Today I think they draw vertical lines from the parts of the body that can be used in football i.e. feet, legs, chest, head etc. It's the attackers furthest forward point and the defenders furthest back point that is compared to define whether onside of offside.

Using the existing technology, you'd have to find a distance between the attacker and defender that implies daylight. That could be something like 50cm. There would still be cases though where the defender is upright and the attacker is leaning forward so you'd see daylight between the torsos but not offside.

Perhaps they can eventually design a technology that has some type of sensor in the chest area of the shirt. Keep it simple and just use that to define the measurements. I'd also love it to go back to 1 player offside, whole team offside regardless of where they are.

I do agree though that the type of disallowed goal Lingard scored for England against the Dutch, measured at 2cm, is contentious. It should have been a goal in the spirit of the game. It was tough to take live at the game and we only knew the outcome because we checked BBC Sport website on our phones. No paying fan should have to do that.
 
Here’s me playing Devils Advocate ! (No! Really!)
Team Blue are attacking in a really important game where the three points are vital. They are awarded a free kick , central , about twenty yards out . Perfect for a direct shot on goal . Everyone is in the Red team is in their own half .
The free kick is blocked in the area and Blue appeal for handball. Ref is not sure and gives nothing . The ball rebounds to Reds midfield maestro who see that his centre forward is one on one on the halfway line . He threads a delicate through ball for the centre forward to run onto .
In the chase from the half way line , centre forward and centre half are tussling for the ball and the centre forward throws his arm out catches the centre half in the face and he goes down like a sack of the proverbial , theatrically holding his eye.
Centre forward is now bearing down on goal but the keeper rushes out of the area and attempts a tackle but missis the ball and takes the forward out totally .
It’s a sending off offence without any question , and the ref has no hesitation in awarding the free kick . Now that the game has been stopped , VAR has a chance to take centre stage .
No handball for the initial block from the free kick because the PL is playing playing by those rules .
Centre forward , it transpires. , deliberately put his arm up into the face of the centre forward In the tussle for the ball and should therefore be sent off . The keeper has put the centre forward into row Z when he came hurtling out of his area .
Then some clever Dick in the control room has noticed that the centre forwards foot was two inches over the halfway line when the initial through ball was kicked and the centre half foot was still two inches in his opponents half .
The Centre forward was therefore offside ! Only by two inches , but hey , what’s more important .
Long Live The Almighty VAR .
Ha ha
 
Big Chiv said:
Good article which proves this nonsense of offside by 1 or 2 mm is a guess and not at all a matter of fact.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...-2-4cm-offside-allowed-13cm-margin-error.html
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“The premier league declined to comment”.
I’m not surprised , this article blows it all out of the water , all these ridiculous, stupid crass decisions to give offside by an inch .
Great post Chiv . Thanks....... although it now winds me up even more .
If anyone tells me it’s the way forward and it’s what football needs one more time I’m going to buy a hat and eat it and buy a cat and kick it from here to kingdom come .


The cat part is a joke . !

Get rid of VAR ..I don’t care how kind it has been to us !
Football has always been played , managed , controlled and and refereed by humans . It’s survived over a hundred and forty years that way . It causes arguments . So what .
 
The delight of yesterday’s decision a side, I still hate VAR

How was that a clear and obvious error?

When you have to zoom in and stop the imagine it isn’t clear and obvious.
 
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