Bit of Brexit info required.

[Bremen Tree]

Who's Blue? People are supporting the EU in Hungary are they...looks like what Orban is doing is backed by the Commission....probably threw him that bone so he could relax on immigration....

Based on what? Orban is a populist leader trying to implement draconian laws. He is not what I'd describe as a EU leaning leader. Hungary has an employment shortfall and he's trying to increase working hours. The shortfall is because wages are low and people are naturally leaving to find better pay.

Instead of making working conditions worse he should introduce a better pay structure/minimum wage. The same kind of thing that those pesky EU type have introduced.

 

[Feco]

Yes

So in addition to all the trade problems, you fully understood we would leave the Galileo project, leave Euratom, with all the consequences that brings to our medical and energy sectors, the standards we would need to devise and get approved worldwide before we can bid for overseas projects. The problems of flying ‘unregistered’ aircraft, the security implications? I could go on.

Good man, you were well ahead of the game

 

[toms]

Toms, I’m saying that those defeated members should now support the will of the party.
Isn’t that what JRM and his colleagues have been telling the remainers for the last couple of years, respect the result and the support the will of the people?

If they are unable to do that, then they should leave the Tories and form their own party/ merge with an appropriate one, like UKIP or the National Front.

Ok (although the National Front is an absolute overexaggeration) and how will that help the numbers in parliament? So what you have just done is given UKIP a platform that they never had. Is this what you want? I have on this thread aligned myself with the 200 but I must say Im not happy about it. I think they should run with this now and have a fight another day if necessary but the problem is that the DUP can bring the government down

 

[Bremen Tree]

To be honest I cant opine on whether people are happy or not so I didn't bother too but Macron's absolute love of the EU isnt in question. If you really want me to bring you up on a line by line analysis of what you say in response to everything I say, happy to do so from now on.

If you insist on regurgitating bile sprouted in the right wing press or make things up to suit then you should quantify your statements when challenged.

 

[toms]

Based on what? Orban is a populist leader trying to implement draconian laws. He is not what I'd describe as a EU leaning leader. Hungary has an employment shortfall and he's trying to increase working hours. The shortfall is because wages are low and people are naturally leaving to find better pay.

Instead of making working conditions worse he should introduce a better pay structure/minimum wage. The same kind of thing that those pesky EU type have introduced.

I think he should decide what's right for his country without EU interference...the electorate can then decide whether he is the right man or not

 

[toms]

If you insist on regurgitating bile sprouted in the right wing press or make things up to suit then you should quantify your statements when challenged.

Im not regurgitating anything...are there riots in Hungary? Is the EU backing Orban? Perhaps you could tell me any statement I make which is wrong in fact. You can argue about my interpretation of the facts but not that something has happened.

And finally, is your opinion based on fact or regurgitation of the left wing press?

 

[in_the_top_one]

So in addition to all the trade problems, you fully understood we would leave the Galileo project, leave Euratom, with all the consequences that brings to our medical and energy sectors, the standards we would need to devise and get approved worldwide before we can bid for overseas projects. The problems of flying ‘unregistered’ aircraft, the security implications? I could go on.

Good man, you were well ahead of the game

And kept quiet about them..

 

[toms]

So in addition to all the trade problems, you fully understood we would leave the Galileo project, leave Euratom, with all the consequences that brings to our medical and energy sectors, the standards we would need to devise and get approved worldwide before we can bid for overseas projects. The problems of flying ‘unregistered’ aircraft, the security implications? I could go on.

Good man, you were well ahead of the game

I never said there wouldn't be any problems but I did think a deal would be reached on all these issues and I believe in the main they have and its for the MPs to now implement

 

[toms]

And kept quiet about them..

And forgive me but to date you have said that at every hurdle, we wouldn't pass it and we have...instead of concentrating on the art of the possible you have chosen the path of maximum resistance and thts because you are ideologically wedded to the notion of a European superstate...

 

[in_the_top_one]

And forgive me but to date you have said that at every hurdle, we wouldn't pass it and we have...instead of concentrating on the art of the possible you have chosen the path of maximum resistance and thts because you are ideologically wedded to the notion of a European superstate...

What have I said would be impossible?

 

[toms]

We might get this thread to 200 at this rate-rather like the 200 MPS who have confidence in the PM

 

[Bremen Tree]

Im not regurgitating anything...are there riots in Hungary? Is the EU backing Orban? Perhaps you could tell me any statement I make which is wrong in fact. You can argue about my interpretation of the facts but not that something has happened.

And finally, is your opinion based on fact or regurgitation of the left wing press?

I pulled you up on the source of your assumptions. They were sensational accusation and had to be challenged

I have lived in mainland Europe for 12yrs, 9 in Germany, 3 in France. My work takes me to other EU states on a regular basis so my opinion is based on daily interaction with colleagues, neighbours and the general feeling within society. So numbers wise it about 40-50 people to which, I have a close relationship. Then there is the rest of the society. Not all of the 40-50 are happy and see the need for some change(s) but they are still behind it 100%

The thing that is forgotten is the EU to date has been instrumental in the fact that no wars has happened. This, I think, is the longest period in Europe where there has not been a major war between to countries.

Nothing left wing in my opinion just providing evidence as opposed to rhetoric

 

[toms]

What have I said would be impossible?

You didn't think we would get passed the initial hurdles set by the EU for example

Ae you ideologically wedded to a European Superstate? I will freely admit to being wedded to the absolute supremacy of the Nation State

 

[toms]

My opinion on the French and German attitudes is based on first hand experience.

My opinion on the Hungarian employment shortfall is based on fact. 33% of the population aged 18–40 showed migration intentions, and 47% of those aged 18–24. Considering that there are approx 9m Hungarians That is a major chunk of those eligible to work who are leaving.

Orban wanting to change Hungarian laws to increase the amount of over time is fact. They are Hungarians and not EU laws.

Nothing left wing in my opinion just providing evidence as opposed to rhetoric

How many people have you asked in France and Germany whether they are happy with the EU? This is what you pulled me up on and which I couldn't opine on.

 

[in_the_top_one]

You didn't think we would get passed the initial hurdles set by the EU for example

What are you on about? Which hurdles? I think you're either confused or just making this up. I've seen you write before that I didn't think anything was possible and I replied at the time that Brino was always possible and the most likely outcome. I recall stating as much very early on. I still think this is true but I believe it would be very damaging and a massive loss of sovereignty.

Ae you ideologically wedded to a European Superstate? I will freely admit to being wedded to the absolute supremacy of the Nation State

Not really, no.
I am fully wedded to the idea of international cooperation and alliances (NOT assimilation) to solve the biggest issues facing humanity. That inevitably involves some sort of shared rules. That is a pooling of sovereignty, I suppose.

Language like "the absolute supremacy of the Nation State" sounds quite frightening.
Insular. Us against them. Supremacy.
Can't we move on from that small minded tribalism?

 

[Bremen Tree]

How many people have you asked in France and Germany whether they are happy with the EU? This is what you pulled me up on and which I couldn't opine on.

I pulled you up on the source of your assumptions. They were sensational accusation and had to be challenged

I have lived in mainland Europe for 12yrs, 9 in Germany, 3 in France. My work takes me to other EU states on a regular basis so my opinion is based on daily interaction with colleagues, neighbours and the general feeling within society. So numbers wise it about 40-50 people. Not all are happy and see the need for some change(s) but they are still behind it 100%

The thing that is forgotten is the EU to date has been instrumental in the fact that no wars has happened. This, I think, is the longest period in Europe where there has not been a major war between to countries.

 

[Feco]

I never said there wouldn't be any problems but I did think a deal would be reached on all these issues and I believe in the main they have and its for the MPs to now implement

But you fully understood all of the consequences of leaving?

 

[Feco]

And forgive me but to date you have said that at every hurdle, we wouldn't pass it and we have...instead of concentrating on the art of the possible you have chosen the path of maximum resistance and thts because you are ideologically wedded to the notion of a European superstate...

And to be fair ITTO is correct, as it hasn’t passed our Parliament and there isn’t a deal in place.

 

[toms]

But you fully understood all of the consequences of leaving?

Yes -I knew we would come out of current associations to be replaced with an agreed position on those items

 

[toms]

What are you on about? Which hurdles? I think you're either confused or just making this up. I've seen you write before that I didn't think anything was possible and I replied at the time that Brino was always possible and the most likely outcome. I recall stating as much very early on. I still think this is true but I believe it would be very damaging and a massive loss of sovereignty.


Not really, no.
I am fully wedded to the idea of international cooperation and alliances (NOT assimilation) to solve the biggest issues facing humanity. That inevitably involves some sort of shared rules. That is a pooling of sovereignty, I suppose.

Language like "the absolute supremacy of the Nation State" sounds quite frightening.
Insular. Us against them. Supremacy.
Can't we move on from that small minded tribalism?

I also believe in cooperation but don't believe its small minded to think the way I do.