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Transfer rumors

You are falling into the same fallacy as a good friend of mine by assuming that zero net spending is not actually spending.

You have a youngster of massive potential that money bags PL clubs decide to spend £20m on.

You lose ONE player. Maybe a very good one, but it's one player

You then spend, say £22m across the squad, greatly improving it with 6-7 players.

You did not just spend £2m and do everything on the cheap.

You spent £22m and hit the jackpot to pay for it.

You have signed 7 players and lost just one.

THAT is investing across several seasons. In an age of FFP it is the only way to do it if you don't have PP. Even Derby have had to do it that way.

The big difference is the club's that a) manage to produce those single, 'jackpot' players (of which we are one) and b) who can afford to actually spend what they make from them.

Norwich have been able to spend most of what they make, until this season we haven't.

£7m for Antonio, £13m for Burke, £15m for Assombalonga plus a handful of other small fees; at least £35-40m in sales over about two seasons. Virtually none was reinvested. Other clubs have been in that position as well
Sorry but it still doesn’t change the point.

What they have spent doesn’t equal what they have sold.

Norwich haven’t even spent half of what they have sold and their total spend is £30m over 3 seasons. How much have we spent in that time bearing in mind our gross spend just this season is over £20m?

FFP is based on net spend. Businesses (which football clubs are) work on net profit. You can’t just ignore it and say ‘well they hit the jackpot and only sold one player’. They either spent more than they sold or they didn’t.

And that’s before we talk about wages...
 
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Sorry but it still doesn’t change the point.

What they have spent doesn’t equal what they have sold.

Norwich haven’t even spent half of what they have sold and their total spend is £30m over 3 seasons. How much have we spent in that time bearing in mind our gross spend just this season is over £20m?

FFP is based on net spend. Businesses (which football clubs are) work on net profit. You can’t just ignore it and say ‘well they hit the jackpot and only sold one player’. They either spent more than they sold or they didn’t.

And that’s before we talk about wages...

We aren't talking about FFP at all though. I don't give a toss about FFP in the context of this debate; it's not particularly relevant.

What they have spent may well exceed what they have sold in terms of value to the side

For instance, we sold Ben Brereton for £7m and bought Lewis Grabban for £6m. That's a £1m net profit just comparing those two transfers.

Thats not spending fuck all. That's spending £6m on a proven striker. By good fortune, we were able to sell a (currently) far inferior one to pay for it. More fool Blackburn.

A year ago we sold Britt for £15m and spent around half that on around 6-7 new players. £6m profit.

But we signed 6-7 decent (ish) players and lost only one. We sold above value to a club that could afford it and bought at value (maybe not so much Murphy) from clubs that wanted rid.

Norwich's spend over the last 3 seasons is €45m, so around £40m. In other words, they have signed £40m worth of players over 3 seasons in the SBC.

They have been able to find that with high fees for about 6 players, some of whom were outright premiership performers who wouldn't be expected to stay at this level. All wingers or attacking midfielders funnily enough.

Just six players have more than paid for £40m of spending.

£40m goes a fair way in the Championship. Especially when your starting point is as premiership team (as opposed to surviving in the SBC on goal difference)

Norwich haven't spent fuck all at all.

And if you want to talk wages, their bill last season was £54m
 
Sorry but it still doesn’t change the point.

What they have spent doesn’t equal what they have sold.

Norwich haven’t even spent half of what they have sold and their total spend is £30m over 3 seasons. How much have we spent in that time bearing in mind our gross spend just this season is over £20m?

FFP is based on net spend. Businesses (which football clubs are) work on net profit. You can’t just ignore it and say ‘well they hit the jackpot and only sold one player’. They either spent more than they sold or they didn’t.

And that’s before we talk about wages...


Don't try to explain budgets or maths to Pope, it's a fools errand.
 
We aren't talking about FFP at all though. I don't give a toss about FFP in the context of this debate; it's not particularly relevant.

What they have spent may well exceed what they have sold in terms of value to the side

For instance, we sold Ben Brereton for £7m and bought Lewis Grabban for £6m. That's a £1m net profit just comparing those two transfers.

Thats not spending fuck all. That's spending £6m on a proven striker. By good fortune, we were able to sell a (currently) far inferior one to pay for it. More fool Blackburn.

A year ago we sold Britt for £15m and spent around half that on around 6-7 new players. £6m profit.

But we signed 6-7 decent (ish) players and lost only one. We sold above value to a club that could afford it and bought at value (maybe not so much Murphy) from clubs that wanted rid.

Norwich's spend over the last 3 seasons is €45m, so around £40m. In other words, they have signed £40m worth of players over 3 seasons in the SBC.

They have been able to find that with high fees for about 6 players, some of whom were outright premiership performers who wouldn't be expected to stay at this level. All wingers or attacking midfielders funnily enough.

Just six players have more than paid for £40m of spending.

£40m goes a fair way in the Championship. Especially when your starting point is as premiership team (as opposed to surviving in the SBC on goal difference)

Norwich haven't spent fuck all at all.

And if you want to talk wages, their bill last season was £54m
According to transfer market their spend was less than £30m - £10m, £5m and £14m. Still less over 3 years than we spent regardless of sales.

Take a better look at what Norwich did and you will see that after relegation they let go of lots of players including Ruddy and Bennett to Wolves.

You might not give a toss about FFP but the EFL does and by extension so do the clubs.

You are trying to downplay the achievement of a club that has spent less than us, turned a profit on transfers and still got promoted.

There really is no point discussing it with you as you are too busy trying to prove they must have had an unfair advantage when the reality is they have just made better use of their resources.
 
According to transfer market their spend was less than £30m - £10m, £5m and £14m. Still less over 3 years than we spent regardless of sales.

Take a better look at what Norwich did and you will see that after relegation they let go of lots of players including Ruddy and Bennett to Wolves.

You might not give a toss about FFP but the EFL does and by extension so do the clubs.

You are trying to downplay the achievement of a club that has spent less than us, turned a profit on transfers and still got promoted.

There really is no point discussing it with you as you are too busy trying to prove they must have had an unfair advantage when the reality is they have just made better use of their resources.

Ok, so your mate CP turns up and you turn a perfectly amicable debate into something more aggressive. Why?

I for one will remain respectful because I just don't care about any personal vendetta you may be trying to build. If it's all the same to you I will remain civil.

Firstly, I am looking at the exact same transfermarkt website as you, and I am getting £40m.

€25m in 16-17, €15m in 17-18, and €5.5m this season. Maths isn't my subject, but I know that that equates to €45.5m and a simple currency converter gives that as just a shade under £40m. Sorry Basha, but I have no idea where you are getting your gross figures from.

I don't give a toss about FFP because it has no bearing on the debate we are having. They passed, we passed. We are talking about how much has been spent per season and how much squad strengthening Norwich have done and how expensively they have done it.

For a start, there is no point whatsoever comparing a PP club to a non-PP club. There is no point comparing a club with premiership players to sell to one that doesn't, and there is little point comparing a club that has had on and off premiership revenues, sponsorship and exposure to one that has been in the middle two tiers for the last 20 years. FFP is not relevant to the point about whether Norwich have spent fuck all on their squad. Passing FFP doesn't mean you are low spending.

I have no idea why you have this bizarre notion that I am pushing some "unfair advantage" line. I wouldn't mind so much if I had said or implied that.

Norwich have not had any unfair advantage whatsoever. But they have had an advantage. They started in this division as a team that had been in the premier League in 4 of the previous 5 seasons, and mid table in two of those. That's a hell of an advantage on most other clubs in this division. Not an unfair advantage but they were still coming from an unlevel playing field in both a sporting and commercial sense.

Upon relegation they sold Brady, Redmond, Ollsen and Canos. The latter two both fetched below £4m. That's not a lot of premiership players leaving. That's a squad that's pretty reasonably intact.

Look at Barnsley a couple of years ago. Came up, sold virtually their entire squad, absolutely nothing to spend from it. That is economic reality for the majority of football league clubs

If you want to see the quality of the squad they have had in that time, look at results against us. We have beaten them once in 7 meetings. The season they came down, they beat us 2-1 at the CG and 5-1 at Carrow Road. I didn't see the latter but I remember the home game well and they absolutely wiped the floor with us. It was embarrassing.

Now, no doubt Norwich have done well in their business since then. Pukki is one of the free foreign signings of the decade. They have a whole host of foreign imports who have done well. There is no doubt that they have found some bargains in the current squad.

But you cannot claim they have spent fuck all. They have spent £40m over 3 seasons. Norwich's wage bill is £54m. They have one of the biggest budgets outside the Premier League and have done for 3 seasons. That's not belittling, but if you look at it in purely economic terms then Sheffield United being promoted is a surprise but Norwich isn't.
 
Ok, so your mate CP turns up and you turn a perfectly amicable debate into something more aggressive. Why?

I for one will remain respectful because I just don't care about any personal vendetta you may be trying to build. If it's all the same to you I will remain civil.

Firstly, I am looking at the exact same transfermarkt website as you, and I am getting £40m.

€25m in 16-17, €15m in 17-18, and €5.5m this season. Maths isn't my subject, but I know that that equates to €45.5m and a simple currency converter gives that as just a shade under £40m. Sorry Basha, but I have no idea where you are getting your gross figures from.

I don't give a toss about FFP because it has no bearing on the debate we are having. They passed, we passed. We are talking about how much has been spent per season and how much squad strengthening Norwich have done and how expensively they have done it.

For a start, there is no point whatsoever comparing a PP club to a non-PP club. There is no point comparing a club with premiership players to sell to one that doesn't, and there is little point comparing a club that has had on and off premiership revenues, sponsorship and exposure to one that has been in the middle two tiers for the last 20 years. FFP is not relevant to the point about whether Norwich have spent fuck all on their squad. Passing FFP doesn't mean you are low spending.

I have no idea why you have this bizarre notion that I am pushing some "unfair advantage" line. I wouldn't mind so much if I had said or implied that.

Norwich have not had any unfair advantage whatsoever. But they have had an advantage. They started in this division as a team that had been in the premier League in 4 of the previous 5 seasons, and mid table in two of those. That's a hell of an advantage on most other clubs in this division. Not an unfair advantage but they were still coming from an unlevel playing field in both a sporting and commercial sense.

Upon relegation they sold Brady, Redmond, Ollsen and Canos. The latter two both fetched below £4m. That's not a lot of premiership players leaving. That's a squad that's pretty reasonably intact.

Look at Barnsley a couple of years ago. Came up, sold virtually their entire squad, absolutely nothing to spend from it. That is economic reality for the majority of football league clubs

If you want to see the quality of the squad they have had in that time, look at results against us. We have beaten them once in 7 meetings. The season they came down, they beat us 2-1 at the CG and 5-1 at Carrow Road. I didn't see the latter but I remember the home game well and they absolutely wiped the floor with us. It was embarrassing.

Now, no doubt Norwich have done well in their business since then. Pukki is one of the free foreign signings of the decade. They have a whole host of foreign imports who have done well. There is no doubt that they have found some bargains in the current squad.

But you cannot claim they have spent fuck all. They have spent £40m over 3 seasons. Norwich's wage bill is £54m. They have one of the biggest budgets outside the Premier League and have done for 3 seasons. That's not belittling, but if you look at it in purely economic terms then Sheffield United being promoted is a surprise but Norwich isn't.
Then you are reading it wrong. This link will take you direct to the 18/19 figures which are pretty much as I quoted:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/norwich-city/transfers/verein/1123

And for your information I had typed my post before I saw CPs. The fact that I agree with him is irrelevant to the fact that I disagree with you so stop playing the victim.

I said there was no point discussing it with you because there isn’t. You won’t accept that net spend is the indicator everyone goes by - businesses, clubs, the EFL, maths teachers... But no, you have to be right so what is the point?

Again, they spent £30m not £40 which is less than us. You say they came down with a premier league squad but did they? They had premier league wages but they were relegated so they were obviously not premier league quality.

And how many relegated clubs go straight back up? Not many and Norwich weren’t one of them so they obviously weren’t that good.

Plenty of teams have beaten us in that timeframe and we are hardly a reliable yardstick as we have been fighting relegation for most of that time.

Nobody expected Norwich to be in the playoffs this season or at least nobody that I could find - even their own fans were expecting mid table. Their promotion was almost as remarkable as Sheff Utd.
 
Then you are reading it wrong. This link will take you direct to the 18/19 figures which are pretty much as I quoted:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/norwich-city/transfers/verein/1123

And for your information I had typed my post before I saw CPs. The fact that I agree with him is irrelevant to the fact that I disagree with you so stop playing the victim.

I said there was no point discussing it with you because there isn’t. You won’t accept that net spend is the indicator everyone goes by - businesses, clubs, the EFL, maths teachers... But no, you have to be right so what is the point?

Again, they spent £30m not £40 which is less than us. You say they came down with a premier league squad but did they? They had premier league wages but they were relegated so they were obviously not premier league quality.

And how many relegated clubs go straight back up? Not many and Norwich weren’t one of them so they obviously weren’t that good.

Plenty of teams have beaten us in that timeframe and we are hardly a reliable yardstick as we have been fighting relegation for most of that time.

Nobody expected Norwich to be in the playoffs this season or at least nobody that I could find - even their own fans were expecting mid table. Their promotion was almost as remarkable as Sheff Utd.
Ok, so you own link gives incoming figures of:

2018-19- £4.81m
2017-18- £13.6m
2016-17- £23.8m

=£42m

It's your own link! Just look at the sum of arrivals for each year. No idea what you are looking at.

Let's imagine you were right though. £30m of squad signings over three seasons at this level is fuck all is it?

I don't care what "what everyone goes by". This is football, not business per se. Net is what counts for FFP, but my argument is always that this is far too simplistic in comparing on pitch competitiveness. It a highly distorted market I which young players of fairly modest ability and reputation can bring in huge sums on 'potential' with virtually no competitive loss to the selling club.

I'm not playing a victim here- I am explaining a point of view that you are absolutely free to disagree with. You are the one making personal judgement's about another forest fan's personality over a minor discussion about another club. Clearly you don't take well to being contradicted. See how annoying that is when someone does it to you for no reason?

Simple question then- where does Norwich's overall budget fit in the Championship? Near the top or near the bottom?

Because is suspect that when you look at where that budget is, their promotion doesn't look so out of place. Just because they finished 14th last season doesn't mean that's the measure of the club

We'll done to them, they have deserved promotion and done a good job. But they are not economic minnows
 
Ok, so your mate CP turns up and you turn a perfectly amicable debate into something more aggressive. Why?

I for one will remain respectful because I just don't care about any personal vendetta you may be trying to build. If it's all the same to you I will remain civil.

Firstly, I am looking at the exact same transfermarkt website as you, and I am getting £40m.

€25m in 16-17, €15m in 17-18, and €5.5m this season. Maths isn't my subject, but I know that that equates to €45.5m and a simple currency converter gives that as just a shade under £40m. Sorry Basha, but I have no idea where you are getting your gross figures from.

I don't give a toss about FFP because it has no bearing on the debate we are having. They passed, we passed. We are talking about how much has been spent per season and how much squad strengthening Norwich have done and how expensively they have done it.

For a start, there is no point whatsoever comparing a PP club to a non-PP club. There is no point comparing a club with premiership players to sell to one that doesn't, and there is little point comparing a club that has had on and off premiership revenues, sponsorship and exposure to one that has been in the middle two tiers for the last 20 years. FFP is not relevant to the point about whether Norwich have spent fuck all on their squad. Passing FFP doesn't mean you are low spending.

I have no idea why you have this bizarre notion that I am pushing some "unfair advantage" line. I wouldn't mind so much if I had said or implied that.

Norwich have not had any unfair advantage whatsoever. But they have had an advantage. They started in this division as a team that had been in the premier League in 4 of the previous 5 seasons, and mid table in two of those. That's a hell of an advantage on most other clubs in this division. Not an unfair advantage but they were still coming from an unlevel playing field in both a sporting and commercial sense.

Upon relegation they sold Brady, Redmond, Ollsen and Canos. The latter two both fetched below £4m. That's not a lot of premiership players leaving. That's a squad that's pretty reasonably intact.

Look at Barnsley a couple of years ago. Came up, sold virtually their entire squad, absolutely nothing to spend from it. That is economic reality for the majority of football league clubs

If you want to see the quality of the squad they have had in that time, look at results against us. We have beaten them once in 7 meetings. The season they came down, they beat us 2-1 at the CG and 5-1 at Carrow Road. I didn't see the latter but I remember the home game well and they absolutely wiped the floor with us. It was embarrassing.

Now, no doubt Norwich have done well in their business since then. Pukki is one of the free foreign signings of the decade. They have a whole host of foreign imports who have done well. There is no doubt that they have found some bargains in the current squad.

But you cannot claim they have spent fuck all. They have spent £40m over 3 seasons. Norwich's wage bill is £54m. They have one of the biggest budgets outside the Premier League and have done for 3 seasons. That's not belittling, but if you look at it in purely economic terms then Sheffield United being promoted is a surprise but Norwich isn't.


That 54m figure for wages is way out.

According to their last set of accounts published in January of this year they clearly state that wages as a percentage of turnover did not exceed 50%

Turnover excluding transfer activity was 64m - this included a parachute payment

They then go on to list wages as 46m which includes a one off impairment charge relating to onerous contracts.

After a quick read through the accounts you would have to say they are a well run club who cut their cloth accordingly.
 
That 54m figure for wages is way out.

According to their last set of accounts published in January of this year they clearly state that wages as a percentage of turnover did not exceed 50%

Turnover excluding transfer activity was 64m - this included a parachute payment

They then go on to list wages as 46m which includes a one off impairment charge relating to onerous contracts.

After a quick read through the accounts you would have to say they are a well run club who cut their cloth accordingly.

My source is here- http://priceoffootball.com/norwich-city-in-the-country/

Feel free to tell me if I have read it wrong, I might have done

Never questioned whether they were a well run club; they always have been. But they are not paupers either.
 
My source is here- http://priceoffootball.com/norwich-city-in-the-country/

Feel free to tell me if I have read it wrong, I might have done

Never questioned whether they were a well run club; they always have been. But they are not paupers either.

No you have not read it wrong; the people who compiled that report have taken the wrong figures.

The footballing side of the operation employ 133 individuals which include all of the players and all of the staff.

They also employ an additional 155 people, and lumped all of them together in the accounts.

The total wage for all 288, including pensions and so on, and the impairment charge, comes to 54m, the figure quoted in the report.

Total spend on player wages comes to around 32m
 
Ok, so you own link gives incoming figures of:

2018-19- £4.81m
2017-18- £13.6m
2016-17- £23.8m

=£42m

It's your own link! Just look at the sum of arrivals for each year. No idea what you are looking at.

Let's imagine you were right though. £30m of squad signings over three seasons at this level is fuck all is it?

I don't care what "what everyone goes by". This is football, not business per se. Net is what counts for FFP, but my argument is always that this is far too simplistic in comparing on pitch competitiveness. It a highly distorted market I which young players of fairly modest ability and reputation can bring in huge sums on 'potential' with virtually no competitive loss to the selling club.

I'm not playing a victim here- I am explaining a point of view that you are absolutely free to disagree with. You are the one making personal judgement's about another forest fan's personality over a minor discussion about another club. Clearly you don't take well to being contradicted. See how annoying that is when someone does it to you for no reason?

Simple question then- where does Norwich's overall budget fit in the Championship? Near the top or near the bottom?

Because is suspect that when you look at where that budget is, their promotion doesn't look so out of place. Just because they finished 14th last season doesn't mean that's the measure of the club

We'll done to them, they have deserved promotion and done a good job. But they are not economic minnows
I give up. ?
 
No you have not read it wrong; the people who compiled that report have taken the wrong figures.

The footballing side of the operation employ 133 individuals which include all of the players and all of the staff.

They also employ an additional 155 people, and lumped all of them together in the accounts.

The total wage for all 288, including pensions and so on, and the impairment charge, comes to 54m, the figure quoted in the report.

Total spend on player wages comes to around 32m
Ok, thanks for that

Still at the top of the tree by SBC standards, but not astronomically out of kilter