The Super League Discussion

[Departed]

Remind me again how much Joe Lewis is worth ?
Wasn’t it reported in the media this week to be 1.9 billion ?
I’m well aware that business are supposed to make profits , but let’s keep it in perspective . .
How much profit did the club make in the preceding five years .
How many times have “we “ ended up losing money in the transfer market .
Everybody is feeling the current financial crises , even us pensioners .
Levy has done a fantastic job running the club , nobody can deny that .
Sacking Poch and Mourhino has cost him dearly .
If we have “only lost “ the amount you have indicated , then the club have done well .

Or have I got all this wrong ,

Our losses are going to be MUCH higher than that. I used all those numbers as an example. As a business owner Lewis has a LOT of his net worth tied up in businesses that will have been hit hard by Covid. I doubt there is a lot of free cash lying around. What would you have Lewis do? Fire all the maintenance staff at all his other properties so he can pay the players?

 

[meee93]

Let's say Spurs normal income is 100 million.

Of that 100 million, let's say that revenues including TV revenues, but NOT game-day revenue, equals 80 million.

Let's say our expenses are 85 million.

We are running at a 5 million annual loss.

So game day revenues push us into profitability. In our case stadium costs were supposed to be offset by other events as well that in this example I haven't accounted for because it will actually make it worse, which has happened.

Our losses will be bigger than 5 million over the last year but where do you cut? I would bet Levy isn't taking any income.

Salaries are the one area that can be cut in this situation. Everyone talks about the greed of the football clubs. GREED? Most of them were barely surviving before the pandemic. We are losing money and that, for as long as we can convince the bankers to allow it, will turn to debt. So we are taking on debt to pay players' salaries.

Not a good business plan under any circumstances. Player intransigence and complete lack of understanding of the situation could be the downfall of a lot of clubs in the next 5 years as they fail to make their way out of the Covid inflicted financial crunch..

I sympathise with how many clubs were struggling and many even more so now following Covid. But my point is that that is due to the failing model that most are run by.

I've always been told that hard times will come, so you save a bit when times are good in order to prepare for it. We've had a booming football economy for 30 years yet these clubs aren't prepared for slightly over 1 season of no fans (which is responsible for the smaller portion of our main income). Granted our situation is obviously more delicate with the unfortunate timing coinciding with the stadium opening.

It is only right for Levy to take little to no income. If the reason for him getting payed so well in other years is because the club did so well financially then by the same logic when things aren't going so well he should take the hit.

Salaries aren't the only area that can be cut. We spent £100million on transfers since the pandemic hit plus signing on Bale with extremely high salary. Of course the counter to that is that clubs need to invest in order to compete, but surviving as a club comes above competing. But asking players to take a cut in salary and then spend 100million on bringing in somebody to take their place doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Gary Onedaysoon]

I sympathise with how many clubs were struggling and many even more so now following Covid. But my point is that that is due to the failing model that most are run by.

I've always been told that hard times will come, so you save a bit when times are good in order to prepare for it. We've had a booming football economy for 30 years yet these clubs aren't prepared for slightly over 1 season of no fans (which is responsible for the smaller portion of our main income). Granted our situation is obviously more delicate with the unfortunate timing coinciding with the stadium opening.

It is only right for Levy to take little to no income. If the reason for him getting payed so well in other years is because the club did so well financially then by the same logic when things aren't going so well he should take the hit.

Salaries aren't the only area that can be cut. We spent £100million on transfers since the pandemic hit plus signing on Bale with extremely high salary. Of course the counter to that is that clubs need to invest in order to compete, but surviving as a club comes above competing. But asking players to take a cut in salary and then spend 100million on bringing in somebody to take their place doesn't sit right with me.

Your last paragraph reminded me of Arsenal last year. I think their players agreed to take a 12.5% pay cut during the first lockdown and then gave a whacking great new contract to Auba in the summer. How did they feel about that?

 

[Walthamstow wanderer]

Our losses are going to be MUCH higher than that. I used all those numbers as an example. As a business owner Lewis has a LOT of his net worth tied up in businesses that will have been hit hard by Covid. I doubt there is a lot of free cash lying around. What would you have Lewis do? Fire all the maintenance staff at all his other properties so he can pay the players?

Depends what is closest to his heart .
it must be awful to be worth 1.9 billion and not have two half pennies to rub together .

His yacht must be a worry to him as well .

I’m not going to carry on with this conversation 80’as I’m way out of my depth on this subject ,mate , ..... all I’m going to say is the club was last valued at 1.6 billion , in the top ten of the most wealthy clubs in the world , the last two year figures show a profit of of three hundred and fifty million pounds .
We still have a substantial amount coming in , and I don’t see why I should be made to feel sorry for Joe Lewis .
If I have it all wrong , then I will hold my hands up .

 

[Spursex]

PREMIER LEAGUE
Carlo Ancelotti: Salary cap would improve the Premier League

Paul Joyce, James Gheerbrant
Friday April 23 2021, 12.01am, The Times
Premier League
Football

Ancelotti suggested more power should be handed to the weaker teams

The Premier League should consider introducing a salary cap to make the top flight more competitive, according to Carlo Ancelotti.

The Everton manager said that more power needed to be distributed to the “weak teams” as he considered how an appetite for change after the collapse of English involvement in the European Super League could manifest itself.

The Champions League is introducing a new format from 2024-25, with an expanded 36-strong single league in which each team plays ten matches, and Ancelotti believes that talks between the relevant stakeholders could also bring about adjustments to domestic matches.

“The Premier League, it is the most competitive league in the world, but it can be more competitive,” he said.

“Why not? This season is really, really competitive. A lot of teams are fighting for fourth place and only the first place is already decided.



“You have to have the weak teams stronger. That’s it. Give more power to the weak teams.
“The teams that are at the bottom of the table, or at 9, 10, 11, they have to be stronger to be more competitive for the top of the table.
“I am not a politician to talk about this but there are a lot of instruments that you can use. One, for example, is a salary cap that could be used to improve the competition.
“The salary caps means less money for the manager, means less money for the players. But to try to equalise the competition a little bit, I think it can be an idea. It can be a solution but there can be other solutions.”

 

[Spursex]

Depends what is closest to his heart .
it must be awful to be worth 1.9 billion and not have two half pennies to rub together .

His yacht must be a worry to him as well .

I’m not going to carry on with this conversation 80’as I’m way out of my depth on this subject ,mate , ..... all I’m going to say is the club was last valued at 1.6 billion , in the top ten of the most wealthy clubs in the world , the last two year figures show a profit of of three hundred and fifty million pounds .
We still have a substantial amount coming in , and I don’t see why I should be made to feel sorry for Joe Lewis .
If I have it all wrong , then I will hold my hands up .

I don't think 80 was trying to get anyone to feel sorry for Lewis; only that his 'cashpile' (if it still exists) will be depleted down to a very small number now and he'll be looking for the operating businessess to fight their way out of the holes that have been dug by covid (and poor practice) - what they can't expect is to a sugar daddy approach to a bail out.

He was at his peak worth around 3.6 billion, he's now valued at about half that, and the half that it's dropped by is pretty much the cash sums that his invested businesses had in reserves i.e. profits from better days.

They will come back of course when some continuous form of the new normal consistency emerges, but until then we shouldn't expect any handouts from him or any other part of Tavistock.

You'd like Lewis Walthy, at heart he is still a good old east end boy from Bethnal Green!

 

[SmithAndJones]

Probably the biggest negative as regards Lewis is that even when his finances were at their peak, he never gave the impression of being willing to significantly invest in Spurs on the pitch. Levy's philosophy has always been to balance the books, and he's done an outstanding job in that regard, but surely Lewis has had the power to loosen the purse strings somewhat, particularly over a brief period when we were amongst the best in Europe and could have probably attracted some of Europe's best players.

 

[Real Deal]

Your last paragraph reminded me of Arsenal last year. I think their players agreed to take a 12.5% pay cut during the first lockdown and then gave a whacking great new contract to Auba in the summer. How did they feel about that?

They did but wanted the money back further down the line. Lol

 

[Real Deal]

I don't think 80 was trying to get anyone to feel sorry for Lewis; only that his 'cashpile' (if it still exists) will be depleted down to a very small number now and he'll be looking for the operating businessess to fight their way out of the holes that have been dug by covid (and poor practice) - what they can't expect is to a sugar daddy approach to a bail out.

He was at his peak worth around 3.6 billion, he's now valued at about half that, and the half that it's dropped by is pretty much the cash sums that his invested businesses had in reserves i.e. profits from better days.

They will come back of course when some continuous form of the new normal consistency emerges, but until then we shouldn't expect any handouts from him or any other part of Tavistock.

You'd like Lewis Walthy, at heart he is still a good old east end boy from Bethnal Green!

He still has enough money in the pot to payoff a few 100 million if needed.

The guy is a nob head.

 

[Spursex]

He still has enough money in the pot to payoff a few 100 million if needed.

The guy is a nob head.

He really might not have, general reports on the state of Butler and mitchell (where he's heavily exposed) is that there is no more cash available.

 

[meee93]

Probably the biggest negative as regards Lewis is that even when his finances were at their peak, he never gave the impression of being willing to significantly invest in Spurs on the pitch. Levy's philosophy has always been to balance the books, and he's done an outstanding job in that regard, but surely Lewis has had the power to loosen the purse strings somewhat, particularly over a brief period when we were amongst the best in Europe and could have probably attracted some of Europe's best players.

I don't think expecting club owners to keep putting their own money in is the way to go. That's what creates the issues of trying to financially compete when other owners are just throwing cash at it constantly. It isn't sustainable and leads to problems when the bubble inevitably does burst.

There is enough revenue generated by premier league clubs that they should be able to attract players without needing cash injections each transfer window.

We are in a lucky position compared to other leagues that we get so much money from our tv deals that we afford budgets above most clubs in Europe. If clubs were run properly then we shouldn't have any issue recruiting talent.

 

[muttley]

I don't think expecting club owners to keep putting their own money in is the way to go. That's what creates the issues of trying to financially compete when other owners are just throwing cash at it constantly. It isn't sustainable and leads to problems when the bubble inevitably does burst.

There is enough revenue generated by premier league clubs that they should be able to attract players without needing cash injections each transfer window.

We are in a lucky position compared to other leagues that we get so much money from our tv deals that we afford budgets above most clubs in Europe. If clubs were run properly then we shouldn't have any issue recruiting talent.

So if the TV broadcasting package is coming down, then what is happening with the TV company's profits? If they're also coming down because less people are subscribing, then I'm good with your argument. However, if they are driving the price per game down and picking up higher profits themselves, then that is not a great thing for football even if we have enough money to go around.

 

[Real Deal]

He really might not have, general reports on the state of Butler and mitchell (where he's heavily exposed) is that there is no more cash available.

He will have to sell one of his 500m yachts then. That's a shame hey.

 

[Spursex]

He will have to sell one of his 500m yachts then. That's a shame hey.

sometimes it's a hard life LOL!

 

[Spursex]

So if the TV broadcasting package is coming down, then what is happening with the TV company's profits? If they're also coming down because less people are subscribing, then I'm good with your argument. However, if they are driving the price per game down and picking up higher profits themselves, then that is not a great thing for football even if we have enough money to go around.

It's a more nuanced complex picture than that for TV companies; broadcast fees i.e. the network carry cost have more than tripled in the last 5 years, whereas advertising income is mixed i.e. no more new advertisers (which has them in panic mode) and no real increase in advert charges.

The pressure on media rights packages from a financial pov is downwards, we have been warned about peak value for rights for a while now, and now finally it looks like a reality - of course the 'mix' of rights will be interesting to see, as that way might lay an income support method i.e. new rights holders buying in such as Amazon (which we've seen and the experience has been good) Apple, netflicks and even a new kid on the block soon - we actually may see ITV back in for some rights!

The bottom line is the thing that is out of wack and has been for years now is the percentage of wages to revenues and that in my view is where FFP has to concentrate, if that do that and say set the max at 65%, then clubs still have the ability to pay top players top wages, but also to spread the rest more in keeping with a well run business.

Do that and much of the motivation for ever increasing media and play-day ticket fees will go away, this in turn will help keep transfer fees down.

The other thing to do is over say a period of 5 years to move the transfer market away from pay-as-he-plays buying deals to cash only deals.

you could then make the capital base of a business a ratio requirement for the fit and proper persons test and this too would get owners to focus on early capital investment into the balance sheet, that has to stay there.

ipso facto = a well run business without being overly draconian and allowing good management to still be the domain of the smart owner.

 

[Nick Real Deal]

It's a more nuanced complex picture than that for TV companies; broadcast fees i.e. the network carry cost have more than tripled in the last 5 years, whereas advertising income is mixed i.e. no more new advertisers (which has them in panic mode) and no real increase in advert charges.

The pressure on media rights packages from a financial pov is downwards, we have been warned about peak value for rights for a while now, and now finally it looks like a reality - of course the 'mix' of rights will be interesting to see, as that way might lay an income support method i.e. new rights holders buying in such as Amazon (which we've seen and the experience has been good) Apple, netflicks and even a new kid on the block soon - we actually may see ITV back in for some rights!

The bottom line is the thing that is out of wack and has been for years now is the percentage of wages to revenues and that in my view is where FFP has to concentrate, if that do that and say set the max at 65%, then clubs still have the ability to pay top players top wages, but also to spread the rest more in keeping with a well run business.

Do that and much of the motivation for ever increasing media and play-day ticket fees will go away, this in turn will help keep transfer fees down.

The other thing to do is over say a period of 5 years to move the transfer market away from pay-as-he-plays buying deals to cash only deals.

you could then make the capital base of a business a ratio requirement for the fit and proper persons test and this too would get owners to focus on early capital investment into the balance sheet, that has to stay there.

ipso facto = a well run business without being overly draconian and allowing good management to still be the domain of the smart owner.

You feeling better Ex ?

 

[Spursex]

You feeling better Ex ?

Still weak, last week/8 days of being ill has utterly drained me, so taking a months gap, but in the meantime my 'partner' was committed to surgery and so next couple of weeks is looking after/helping her with her recovery - could have done without it to be honest, but if she didn't have it now, she wouldn't have been able to have it for a good few months as the consultant/surgeon is fully booked until September, so she reluctantly kept the date and in some way might well have focused me better than I have been lately.

As it is, I've eased off the re-hab as the doctor thinks that once again I was being too ambitious and too impatient - I couldn't argue with that, as he said he's seeing alot of post covid patients coming down with infections on an increasing scale.

Thanks for asking.

 

[Greavswasthegreatest]

You will beat all this EX...I dont have faith ....so no diety prayers, but I do have faith in your strength and resolve

 

[Departed]

He still has enough money in the pot to payoff a few 100 million if needed.

The guy is a nob head.

You do not know that is the case.

 

[Departed]

I sympathise with how many clubs were struggling and many even more so now following Covid. But my point is that that is due to the failing model that most are run by.

I've always been told that hard times will come, so you save a bit when times are good in order to prepare for it. We've had a booming football economy for 30 years yet these clubs aren't prepared for slightly over 1 season of no fans (which is responsible for the smaller portion of our main income). Granted our situation is obviously more delicate with the unfortunate timing coinciding with the stadium opening.

It is only right for Levy to take little to no income. If the reason for him getting payed so well in other years is because the club did so well financially then by the same logic when things aren't going so well he should take the hit.

Salaries aren't the only area that can be cut. We spent £100million on transfers since the pandemic hit plus signing on Bale with extremely high salary. Of course the counter to that is that clubs need to invest in order to compete, but surviving as a club comes above competing. But asking players to take a cut in salary and then spend 100million on bringing in somebody to take their place doesn't sit right with me.

Levy's income is a pittance compared to the players.