The (Possible Premature) Official Welcome Back Michael Dawson Thread | Page 4 | Vital Football

The (Possible Premature) Official Welcome Back Michael Dawson Thread

Pope John XXIII said:
Did Nottingham suddenly become a bigger City than London, Manchester or Liverpool in the 1980's?

I was young but I must have missed that massive expansion and following contraction. It must have been something to behold, I'm sorry I missed it.

Or maybe it's your Geography that needs a brush up?
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As Mao pointed out, the size of the club wasn’t quite as important prior to the premier league.

Man Utd were a massive club in terms of fan base but had won nothing of note for years.

Behind Liverpool who were the dominant teams of the 80s you found clubs like Forest, Villa and Everton.

To many, the thought of playing for Forest who were a name and for Brian Clough was worth far more than playing for a struggling Utd, City, Chelsea or Spurs.

Unfortunately the European ban coincided with our slow decline and ensured we slid away from the top table at just the wrong time.
 
59 caps v 4
4 Wembley cup wins v 1
Highest league position 3rd (twice) v 4th
Number of consecutive appearances in PFA team of the year 4 v 0.

Football was a very different game prior to Murdoch, try reading up a little. We were a far better proposition for trophies than Spurs.
 
Basha73 said:
As Mao pointed out, the size of the club wasn’t quite as important prior to the premier league.

Man Utd were a massive club in terms of fan base but had won nothing of note for years.

Behind Liverpool who were the dominant teams of the 80s you found clubs like Forest, Villa and Everton.

To many, the thought of playing for Forest who were a name and for Brian Clough was worth far more than playing for a struggling Utd, City, Chelsea or Spurs.

Unfortunately the European ban coincided with our slow decline and ensured we slid away from the top table at just the wrong time.
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I'm genuinely flabbergasted at how ignorant Pope is about football in general and us specifically. Embarrassing really.
 
Calvin Plummer said:
59 caps v 4
4 Wembley cup wins v 1
Highest league position 3rd (twice) v 4th
Number of consecutive appearances in PFA team of the year 4 v 0.

Football was a very different game prior to Murdoch, try reading up a little. We were a far better proposition for trophies than Spurs.
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And yet in 1991 it was Spurs who not only won the cup but had two of England's top attacking talents in their team in Lineker and Gascoigne. And then Sheringham of course
 
Basha73 said:
As Mao pointed out, the size of the club wasn’t quite as important prior to the premier league.

Man Utd were a massive club in terms of fan base but had won nothing of note for years.

Behind Liverpool who were the dominant teams of the 80s you found clubs like Forest, Villa and Everton.

To many, the thought of playing for Forest who were a name and for Brian Clough was worth far more than playing for a struggling Utd, City, Chelsea or Spurs.

Unfortunately the European ban coincided with our slow decline and ensured we slid away from the top table at just the wrong time.
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The are two key sets of factors behind a club being 'big'- temporary factors and permenent ones.

Man Utd, Arsenal, Spurs etc have permenent factors in terms of not only fan base but possible fan base. They also have the temporary factors of recent success, money etc that can be self perpetuating.

Forest in the 80's had the temporary factors but will never have the permenent ones.

I accept it was different in the 1980's but Man Utd were still seen as a massive club, hence why everyone went mad when we won at Old Trafford 4-0. We were up among them in terms of league position for around 5 years or so and the best cup team in the country but we couldn't match them for money and we couldn't get away from the fact that we are in shitty Nottingham and the big clubs are in desirable places to live (Liverpool aside).

Poor old CP can't quite compute that if he argues that it was different in the 80's and so forest could be a big club then he can't then compare stats from two different eras as if they were comparable.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
And yet in 1991 it was Spurs who not only won the cup but had two of England's top attacking talents in their team in Lineker and Gascoigne. And then Sheringham of course
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Around that time we had Charles, Pearce, Walker, Webb, Hodge and Clough all in or around the England squad.

The cup win was their first success in ten years i think.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
The are two key sets of factors behind a club being 'big'- temporary factors and permenent ones.

Man Utd, Arsenal, Spurs etc have permenent factors in terms of not only fan base but possible fan base. They also have the temporary factors of recent success, money etc that can be self perpetuating.

Forest in the 80's had the temporary factors but will never have the permenent ones.

I accept it was different in the 1980'sbut Man Utd were still seen as a massive club, hence why everyone went mad when we won at Old Trafford 4-0. We were up among them in terms of league position for around 5 years or so and the best cup team in the country but we couldn't match them for money and we couldn't get away from the fact that we are in shitty Nottingham and the big clubs are in desirable places to live (Liverpool aside)
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You are missing the point though.

You argued that Dawson had played at a higher level or for a bigger club than Walker when the facts show that at the time the club Walker played for was every bit as big in terms of success as Spurs were when Dawson played for them.

We all know that Spurs are a bigger club overall and are more successful now but back then no one gave a monkeys about them in comparison to us.

It is also clear from the trophies and awards won that Walker was remarkably successful at our provincial club and outperformed Dawson at his big club.
 
Basha73 said:
You are missing the point though.

You argued that Dawson had played at a higher level or for a bigger club than Walker when the facts show that at the time the club Walker played for was every bit as big in terms of success as Spurs were when Dawson played for them.

We all know that Spurs are a bigger club overall and are more successful now but back then no one gave a monkeys about them in comparison to us.
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Ok, that's a fair point well made. Were forest the equivalent in the late 80's of Spurs in the 00's? Based on what yourself and other reasonable posters have said then maybe that's a good equivalency.

Like I said before it's a shame that Liverpool shafted us all. Dawson got to play in Europe and especially the European Cup which Walker never really got the chance of. It would be easier to compare then.

I don't think the stats are comparable given that Dawson has played in the era of the PL superclub lockouts and the influx of foreign players, as well as one of the better generations of England teams.

Either way, my overall point was not of direct comparison for who was better, as I have never said Dawson was- simply that they weren't a million miles apart. I still don't believe they were.

The absolute key point I've been making though is that I think there is every chance of Dawson being a success in the twilight of his career as Des was
 
I don't think there is any doubt that Walker in his prime was the better of the two. He was a genuine world class player and better than any of the England defenders since.
But I totally agree with the point Pope was originally making, in that I think Dawson will be a great signing for us, as long as he can stay fit. He has the size, experience and passion for the club that we need. Let's face it, even the nostalgia it represents is welcome and can only add to the atmosphere come first game of the season.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
And yet in 1991 it was Spurs who not only won the cup but had two of England's top attacking talents in their team in Lineker and Gascoigne. And then Sheringham of course
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Basha73 said:
You are missing the point though.

You argued that Dawson had played at a higher level or for a bigger club than Walker when the facts show that at the time the club Walker played for was every bit as big in terms of success as Spurs were when Dawson played for them.

We all know that Spurs are a bigger club overall and are more successful now but back then no one gave a monkeys about them in comparison to us.

It is also clear from the trophies and awards won that Walker was remarkably successful at our provincial club and outperformed Dawson at his big club.
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He won't grasp it, he's too entrenched in his stupidity to realise what an arse he's making of himself.
 
Basha73 said:
Around that time we had Charles, Pearce, Walker, Webb, Hodge and Clough all in or around the England squad.

The cup win was their first success in ten years i think.
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Just looking at the 1990 world cup semi final is fascinating.

There are two Forest players in that team, along with two Spurs and two Derby players- but only one from Liverpool.

QPR, Villa, Rangers and Marseilles finish the team.

Can anyone tell me how that is? Liverpool and Arsenal were the general Champions of that era with Leeds emerging. How did those clubs do that without a single England player other than Peter Beardsley?
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Can anyone tell me how that is? Liverpool and Arsenal were the general Champions of that era with Leeds emerging. How did those clubs do that without a single England player other than Peter Beardsley?
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I think we're a similar age Pope - I'm 37, so maybe just a year or two older. My first Forest game was 1990, against Southampton - they had (a young) Shearer, Le Tissier, Rod Wallace, Russell Osman, Glenn Cockerill and Tim Flowers playing for them that day. Players who'd turned out for England, or would at least go on to play for them.

I always remember my dad telling me at the time that every club in the top flight had at least two players who'd walk into anyone else's team. Even Derby had Mark Wright and Dean Saunders. Pre-Murdoch, there wasn't this ring-fencing of talent you get now, and squads were smaller.

Speaking specifically of Liverpool, I seem to remember (from my old Panini album) that the core of their squad was Scottish, Irish and Swedish at that particular point.

Totally different times, though. The Forest I was introduced to were unrecognisable from this current one - in standards and expectations, as much as anything. My second game was the 7-0 against Chelsea - Gary Crosby tore Frank Sinclair a new arsehole that day.

Whoever we were playing at the CG, the expectation was very much that we'd beat them. I remember the first time I saw us play United - we won 1-0 (Nigel Clough, I think - I know it was a midweek game). I'm not sure how, but I knew it was a bigger game than normal - I was also pretty confident we'd beat them.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Ok, that's a fair point well made. Were forest the equivalent in the late 80's of Spurs in the 00's? Based on what yourself and other reasonable posters have said then maybe that's a good equivalency.

Like I said before it's a shame that Liverpool shafted us all. Dawson got to play in Europe and especially the European Cup which Walker never really got the chance of. It would be easier to compare then.

I don't think the stats are comparable given that Dawson has played in the era of the PL superclub lockouts and the influx of foreign players, as well as one of the better generations of England teams.

Either way, my overall point was not of direct comparison for who was better, as I have never said Dawson was- simply that they weren't a million miles apart. I still don't believe they were.

The absolute key point I've been making though is that I think there is every chance of Dawson being a success in the twilight of his career as Des was
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Actually, although their cup of choice was the FA rather than league, I would say we were closer to Arsenal in the years after they last won the league. A damn good side but never quite good enough over a full season.

As for Dawson, Des Walker was the Ferdinand or Terry of his day that Dawson would never have dislodged.

If he has anywhere near the effect that Walker had on his return though I will be delighted.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Just looking at the 1990 world cup semi final is fascinating.

There are two Forest players in that team, along with two Spurs and two Derby players- but only one from Liverpool.

QPR, Villa, Rangers and Marseilles finish the team.

Can anyone tell me how that is? Liverpool and Arsenal were the general Champions of that era with Leeds emerging. How did those clubs do that without a single England player other than Peter Beardsley?
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I think Those Feet has answered it well with the fact that Arsenal and Liverpool were shopping in a wider market and Liverpool had all the best Irish and Scottish players.

You also didn’t have the big clubs hoovering up the talent like they do these days.
 
Talking of Des, I was sat in the Junior Reds when he scored his last minute goal against Luton. I was freezing and just wanted to go home, but my dad always said: "leave when you want, but your lift home's still gonna be at quarter past five."

It's no reflection on his defensive abilities, granted, but I've still never seen a Forest crowd go apeshit for a goal like they did that day. That's the esteem he was held in - and I've not seen a Forest player loved and respected the same way since. Just remarkable really that we had two bona fide legends in the same team, and both in their pomp. Three really, counting Nigel.
 
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