Thanks Sam | Page 4 | Vital Football

Thanks Sam

Mighty Bongsmon said:
Malice or intent doesn’t come into it.
See if you can pause it when the Brentford player heads the ball - Morsy is comparatively some distance away & there was no way he could get the ball yet he still leant in head first.
Whether there was malice, intent or whether he just made an error of judgement it was still dangerous and late in my opinion
Click to expand...

I cant accept your interpretation MB, how can a player who is already making the challenge pull his head out in the micro second he would have. The referee did not have the advantage of seeing the slow motion replay so unless he is gifted with super powers your argument does not make sense. Contact took place in less than a second and was accelerated by the push from Connolly, so Samy would have no chance to alter his position.

I know as a referee you are going to take your colleagues part, but I think on this one the excuses you are making don't stand up to scrutiny. It was what it was, a clash of heads, unfortunately the referee saw something different, perhaps he was influenced by Morsy's previous conduct, perhaps he was pressured by the Brentford players, only he knows. For me it was accidental contact, but I was not the ref and his decision at the time was it was malicious, we will have to wait and see what the review panel say, but I wont hold my breath.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
I cant accept your interpretation MB, how can a player who is already making the challenge pull his head out in the micro second he would have. The referee did not have the advantage of seeing the slow motion replay so unless he is gifted with super powers your argument does not make sense. Contact took place in less than a second and was accelerated by the push from Connolly, so Samy would have no chance to alter his position.

I know as a referee you are going to take your colleagues part, but I think on this one the excuses you are making don't stand up to scrutiny. It was what it was, a clash of heads, unfortunately the referee saw something different, perhaps he was influenced by Morsy's previous conduct, perhaps he was pressured by the Brentford players, only he knows. For me it was accidental contact, but I was not the ref and his decision at the time was it was malicious, we will have to wait and see what the review panel say, but I wont hold my breath.
Click to expand...

If I think a referee is wrong I will say that a referee is wrong & anyone who has ever sat near me at a game will testify to that!!.
I just don't think he is in this instance but unlike some other incidents where I have defended the ref, I can see how other people can interpret this challenge differently.
I'm pretty certain though that the referee hasn't decided that Morsy's actions were malicious - I think he's decided that by committing to the challenge after their guy has headed it rather than trying to pull out then it's dangerous play.
Their player had time to try & lessen the force of the contact between them and so did Morsy although I accept some collision was inevitable. Their player raises his leg & arms in a defensive manner and pulls his head away whereas Morsy puts his head in. That for me makes it dangerous play & so deserving of a red card

Was he influenced by the Brentford players? Can't say for certain but I don't think he was. He runs over to the Brentford player immediately to check on him & there's only 1 player who seems to say anything to him (the one who initially checks on his team mate). The rest go straight for Morsy. You can see though as he's running to the player on the deck he takes a look at Morsy so that he knows who to sanction once he's looked at the player & everything's calmed down. Knowing ref's body language, the way he was blowing on his whistle & the way he initially checked who it was, I'd guess that Morsy was always going to get sent off regardless of the Brentford players all going for him
 
MB, I think you've described there the brentford player taking evasive action, of which I've no problem with. However you could interpret it that he was out of control of his body movements and went into Morsy. Morsy never elbowed him but his arm was parallel to his chest - again this a defensive position to protect himself from a collision when going to head a ball and is a natural position for his arm to be in. I still maintain in that split second Morsy couldn't pull out of anything nor form the men's rea to go and effectively headbutt an opponent. I think it's doing him a massive disservice to think so. Morsy was in a stable base braced for impact whilst the brentford lad could not control anything and is why one was hurt and not the other. Purely an accidental collision between two players that merited no further action.

As I said yesterday whether those adjudicating on it give it the appropriate consideration I'm not sure. To be honest it's why I'm against var. Despite the incompetence of officiating in recent weeks (I don't actually include Saturdays ref in that as I concede in real time it was difficult to judge and is only clear when analysing and understanding the sequence of events) there is still much interpretation in the game that I think it will just increase the sense of injustice if something doesn't go how you view it.
 
Mighty Bongsmon said:
- I think he's decided that by committing to the challenge after their guy has headed it rather than trying to pull out then it's dangerous play.
Click to expand...

And there we have it in a nutshell....you think he committed after the Brentford lad headed it whereas I maintain he committed way before. Just got done for pace.

They should start recruiting refs from ex pros not these classroom know notes we are lumbered with. They know the laws but not a clue about how it all works.
 
That’s why I said I can see in this instance why others could come to a different conclusion than me. I’m just giving my view of it

They want to recruit from ex pros but they’re not interested and why would they be when they get so much stick after they’ve had a well paid football career even at the lower levels
Jason Jarrett tried and then quit when, despite moving very quickly through the levels, felt they weren’t promoting him quickly enough.

As I’ve said elsewhere the refs know the laws and how they work - a lot of the times it’s others who don’t and you find what they’re disagreeing with is the law itself rather than the referee’s application or interpretation of it
 
....and in one sentence you have given the answer, application or interpretation.

Every referee interprets the laws in their own way and applies them as he determines fit, hence we have the discussions around decisions.

My previous post was not in any way having a pop at you MB, I just disagree with your interpretation. I do not see how anyone committed to heading a ball can manoeuvre themselves out of the way whilst their feet are off the ground, even if he had the time to pull his head back he would still collide with the other player.

As far as my comments regarding support for your colleagues, it is common knowledge that I have favoured goalkeepers in the past, having been one myself and I would also say that without doubt the majority on this forum are biased towards our own team, it's human nature. So why not referees.

Perhaps we should all wait for the outcome of the review panel, however I am sure we will all have our own interpretation of what they decided.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
....and in one sentence you have given the answer, application or interpretation.

Every referee interprets the laws in their own way and applies them as he determines fit, hence we have the discussions around decisions.

My previous post was not in any way having a pop at you MB, I just disagree with your interpretation. I do not see how anyone committed to heading a ball can manoeuvre themselves out of the way whilst their feet are off the ground, even if he had the time to pull his head back he would still collide with the other player.

As far as my comments regarding support for your colleagues, it is common knowledge that I have favoured goalkeepers in the past, having been one myself and I would also say that without doubt the majority on this forum are biased towards our own team, it's human nature. So why not referees.

Perhaps we should all wait for the outcome of the review panel, however I am sure we will all have our own interpretation of what they decided.
Click to expand...

I didn't see your post as a pop - I know some will think I blindly support refs but I don't think I do. I just know how they're told to apply & interpret laws by the football authorities (domestic & international) & quite regularly that's at odds with what many supporters believe is how the the laws are supposed to be applied i.e. "he's last man, he's got to go" when that's not mentioned anywhere in law or the interpretation of it or my debate with MiW the other week about what should & shouldn't be considered an obvious goal scoring opportunity
At the game I'll regularly be out of my seat effin & jeffin at the officials

i think referees are subconsciously affected by players & crowds but its not deliberate - if you're at Old Trafford & there's a decision you're trying to quickly make up your mind about & 73,000 people appeal for it you may be swayed more than if the 3,000 away supporters in the corner appeal for it

As for Morsy, we're viewing the incident differently as for me he doesn't commit to challenging until the other guy has headed it. If he committed to challenging before that, it would still be a foul as you see fouls given several times a game when a player heads it away & is then clattered. As I said for me there's 2 reasons why its dangerous as he challenges late & his head comes in after the ball has gone.

In all honesty i think these panels look at reasons as to justify the decision as opposed to looking at reasons to over turn it. I can accept someone else looking at that incident can interpret it differently but I would be amazed and gobsmacked if the FA & ref look at it again & over turn it
 
Made in Wigan said:
In all honest MB, I'm not sure half of them can interpret the laws correctly given what we've seen this season.
Click to expand...

I know it was the Premier League but the fact that if VAR was in use, 1 decision would have been reversed last weekend suggests that the vast majority are actually bang on the money when it comes to interpreting the laws of the game
 
I was there, and it was a joy to see a team play at pace and with such fluency. We were off the pace for so much of the game it was like elephants against whippets with us being the elephants. Our players were becoming frustrated chasing shadows, especially Sam and Powell. Sam was on a yellow and the ref had spoken to him a number of times I had the feeling he was due an early bath, Powell was heading the same way, good job he was taken off. We did come to life when we went down to 10 men. 20 pounds for my son and 15 for me, if that is what the Brentford supporters pay to see such attractive football lucky people. Walking out of the ground up to the high street called into a chippy £1.99 for a large bag of chips and i mean large, then £1.99 for a pint of John Smiths in Weatherspoons, good day out it was not all doom and gloom.
 
Mighty Bongsmon said:
Exactly & one of many reasons why i don't want to see VAR introduced - refs are human & they make mistakes. They make far less over the course of a game than the players & managers do!!
Click to expand...

Agree with the first bit - if it was a clinical science to be honest we wouldn't have much to discuss post game. Despite my frustrations with them I'd much rather that than be subject to var. Re the Saturday pl fixtures and var - there is a vast difference between clear and obvious error in the decisions as opposed to degrees of interpretation. For example the one they said was wrong was an offside, others even refs said were wrong - such as a contentious handball at Bournemouth - wouldn't have been overturned. Personally that's why I don't see the point of it as it isnt utopia.
 
As another example then, every game that a premier league referee & their assistants do is reviewed afterwards by a team of assessors.
They're not at the ground watching it with no replays & just the one angle like I used to get - its pretty much as you get watching it on the telly
If they one decision wrong they lose marks. Lose too many marks in a game & they get "rested" or given a lower league fixture. Consistently get poor marks & they'll get demoted.
Anyway, through marking the refs like this they released some stats earlier this year & on average the PL referee gets 98% of their decisions correct.
Offsides were also reviewed for the assistants & again they got 98% of the decisions correct
I'll admit that those figures come from the PGMO & some will argue that they aren't neutral but even the most critical studies show they get the vast majority of decisions right
 
I'm somewhat sceptical about those figures. As we've discussed a lot of decisions are a matter of interpretation as I doubt they're marked down for those even when the consensus amongst their peers are that the decision in their view is incorrect.
 
Must admit although I was convinced it was not a red card I thought that the evidence to overturn it was in the least sketchy. Well done the review panel.

MB, just to say the input you have provided in this debate is the reason I come on this site. it is very inciteful and extremely helpful in explaining some of the decisions that perplex me at games. I hope you will continue to give us a refs view of future games.

Enjoy the match tonight, and I hope there will be one or two decisions we can argue over tomorrow.:wahey::party::cheers:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.