Poch getting ready for the off? | Page 5 | Vital Football

Poch getting ready for the off?

Poch has done an absolute amazing job, no denying that. When it comes to building teams his time at Southampton and Spurs has shown he is second to none.

He came in as a young manager who has a lot to learn, but the big games have shown that he didn't learn much.

After 4 years he still crumbles in the big games, he still hasn't evolved his tactics, he still makes odd tactical decisions and subs, we still can't break tight defences, and we still can't sign attacking players.Wanyama coming on vs Manu was a breaking point for me.

Now that I've calmed down a bit and tried to think about this from a different angle I'm reading his comments and they seem odd to say the least. If he wants to stay I'm indifferent, but if he wants to leave then by all means.

Still, the risk associated with replacing him sends shivers down my spine.
 
The only reason he is the best man for the job is because there isn't a proven manager out there dumb enough to work with our chairman. Poch has brought into the project. A project that will never win a trophy.

Unless of course Levy breaks the trend and spends the money on a proven winner and just lets him get on with it. If we are prepared to make Poch the 3rd best paid manager in the league then we can certainly attract a proven winner.

It gets repeated here so often - Poch being the best manager in all of the world who would be able to work with Levy - but it’s ridiculous to make such a claim. In the manchester clubs, you get one season, if that, to buy players and make them gel. Second season: put up or shut up. Same with chavs. Same will be true for arse after wenger. You don’t get 4 winless years in any of the other top 6 sides. Yes, there is improvement during these years, and our transfer policy and frugal wage structure imposed by Levy need to be changed.

If Poch leaves after the season it’s of his own volition. I cannot see him getting sacked if the team qualifies for the CL.

In my opinion, I think Poch departing would be ok as long as a capable replacement is found. Tottenham is a big club, in the CL, exciting young players, new stadium. In spite of Levy (whose reputation on this forum is exponentially worse than in real life) it should be a tempting gig, even for the more decorated candidates.
 
Levy’s reputation? He’s a hard driving business man who has very strict operating principles that he does not veer from. Outside of that he is known as a genuinely decent human being.
 
Also, don’t kid yourself, United are looking for a long term replacement for SAF.
 
All you have to do is look at relative spends if viewed through that context you can easily see why some managers/clubs win just about everything...

The financial gap for the first time in our history is about to start closing - and when it does and the budget cloudiness gets swept away - then I will expect to start winning silverware AND maintaining a top four presence.

Anything until then is just wishful thinking.
 
All you have to do is look at relative spends if viewed through that context you can easily see why some managers/clubs win just about everything...

The financial gap for the first time in our history is about to start closing - and when it does and the budget cloudiness gets swept away - then I will expect to start winning silverware AND maintaining a top four presence.

Anything until then is just wishful thinking.


With the occasional pleasant upside surprise.
 
With the occasional pleasant upside surprise.

Perhaps, but I don't expect them, I really don't - that said, I think Poch's game management is too often his biggest weakness - as it was shown to be yet again against the manure - in my book he has to take responsibility for that result; the way he set us up and the way he left changes too late to turn it around....
 
I blame Dembele more than Poch for the Man U game.

That said playing Vorm was a mistake in hindsight and Kane no matter how much he protests it, clearly isn't 100%. Our whole shape has fallen apart since he's come back.
 
I wouldn't lose any sleep if he left, I've said it for a while..he will never win anything with us.

How depressing when you go into a big cup semi final like Saturday and I was 95% sure we would lose it, I even told a lot of people it wouldn't surprise me if we were winning at one stage, we just always bottle it. It's no coincidence anymore. After the first leg against Juve I knew we would lose that still.

You also said we'd only win 3 games at Wembley this season. If you always predict the worst, occasionally you get proven right
 
Poch's game management is too often his biggest weakness - as it was shown to be yet again against the manure - in m....

This and Ex's point about the silverware to spend ratio seem the only real points worth developing, and I'd add recruitment. Can Poch maintain his reputation as a star coach whilst the revenue boost kicks in and puts him a position to win trophies. He will be assessing this; because surely it would be galling to do the hard yards and in 18 months there's regularly £100m to spend plus sales and have Nagglesman or Howe spend it and win the first big titles at Spurs since 61. On the flip Levy is no mug and not in the least sentimenta, he'll be talking to Pleat about Poch in the Juve and United games and how he was definitively out manoeuvred by Allegri/Mourinho and asking if we can make that final step. Because whatever folk say on Levy I believe he wants to win a title under his tenure. He will also be looking at what we spent on Sisoko and Jansen and the reds spent Salaha and Firminho. And wanting similar bang for his buck.
 
You also said we'd only win 3 games at Wembley this season. If you always predict the worst, occasionally you get proven right

That is true, I thought we would have a bad season in the league because of Wembley but if you actually read back on most of my posts I'm actually more positive than a lot of people. Although I've finally had enough of failure, year after year
 
Some people seem to forget who actually got us to this level.

Granted, he can be tactically naive at times, as shown up against Allegri and Maureeno, but both of those have years worth of experience. Do we want a manager who sticks to his principles (ala Pep) or a pragmatist? I know which I prefer.
 
I blame Dembele more than Poch for the Man U game.

That said playing Vorm was a mistake in hindsight and Kane no matter how much he protests it, clearly isn't 100%. Our whole shape has fallen apart since he's come back.

I'm not one for apportioning blame on anyone , especially for a defeat , but Dembele was a mistake waiting to happen in this game . He was overrun by the Utd midfield and should have been taken off earlier,
I think Vorm was always going to be selected due to the ludicrous trend of playing goalkeepers in different completions , which I find stupid.

The quote about Kane , Fruend, absolutely says it all. Somebody should print it off and nail it on Poch,s office door.
At the moment he is bringing absolutely nothing to the team . Not holding the ball up and bringing others into play , not making runs that can open up opportunities , definitely not terrorising defences , and his goal scoring knack has disappeared . It's been said we are more fluid without him , but if he is banging in two goals a game or creating chances for others , then it's understandable why he is the first name on the team sheet. At the moment he is a luxury we just cannot afford
 
"The irony is when Wenger suggested the top four was a trophy he was laughed at. He managed 9 years without a trophy but consistently delivered champions league football and his job was safe.

In the last five years he has picked up three trophies, with potentially two cup finals this year but finishing 5th and 6th got him the sack.

Shocking, but it seems football is about money not silverware"

Invincible 49

A gooner published this on a BBC football page. It resonated with me because it highlights the schism between fans and owners that Pochettino seems to want the press (who have been critical) to be mindful of. There now are different kinds of "successful",with the thresholds in various places. If we get 4th Levy may well be delighted with Poch and hand him a bonus. It won't placate the fans and increasingly I fear the players. If the owners are content with this then they will have to remunerated the players like Rose and Toby for a career spent in the service of top 4 and no medals. They can't have it both ways.
 
"The irony is when Wenger suggested the top four was a trophy he was laughed at. He managed 9 years without a trophy but consistently delivered champions league football and his job was safe.

In the last five years he has picked up three trophies, with potentially two cup finals this year but finishing 5th and 6th got him the sack.

Shocking, but it seems football is about money not silverware"

Invincible 49

A gooner published this on a BBC football page. It resonated with me because it highlights the schism between fans and owners that Pochettino seems to want the press (who have been critical) to be mindful of. There now are different kinds of "successful",with the thresholds in various places. If we get 4th Levy may well be delighted with Poch and hand him a bonus. It won't placate the fans and increasingly I fear the players. If the owners are content with this then they will have to remunerated the players like Rose and Toby for a career spent in the service of top 4 and no medals. They can't have it both ways.




And that's the thing Don, if you listen to any ex pro they all sing the same song, you don't get medals for finishing top4 and you don't get remembered for it either.

For players and supporters the game is about glory and glory means trophies.
 
"The irony is when Wenger suggested the top four was a trophy he was laughed at. He managed 9 years without a trophy but consistently delivered champions league football and his job was safe.

In the last five years he has picked up three trophies, with potentially two cup finals this year but finishing 5th and 6th got him the sack.

Shocking, but it seems football is about money not silverware"

Invincible 49

A gooner published this on a BBC football page. It resonated with me because it highlights the schism between fans and owners that Pochettino seems to want the press (who have been critical) to be mindful of. There now are different kinds of "successful",with the thresholds in various places. If we get 4th Levy may well be delighted with Poch and hand him a bonus. It won't placate the fans and increasingly I fear the players. If the owners are content with this then they will have to remunerated the players like Rose and Toby for a career spent in the service of top 4 and no medals. They can't have it both ways.

Spurdon , if there is one thing I am good at , it's reading between the lines , and , despite one poster on here's signature , you can find something there .
From day one of his tenure here Poch has never been told to go out and win a domestic trophy, at all costs . For sure , he has had a stab at it , but safe in the knowledge that failing to land one will not cost him his job . The Gooner posting above is very pertinent and extremely relevant to our current situation .
Only last week Poch said that winning the FA Cup would not progress the club ( the Project?) which I thought was bizarre given the timing.
Ex has confirmed my thoughts that he has exceeded expectations this season by keeping us in contention for the Champions League and if he achieves that ,everything will be rosy in the boardroom but not in local drinking establishments.
His post match comment that next year it may be prudent to play the development squad players in the cups only backs up the" Philosophy"
 
Spurdon , if there is one thing I am good at , it's reading between the lines , and , despite one poster on here's signature , you can find something there .
From day one of his tenure here Poch has never been told to go out and win a domestic trophy, at all costs . For sure , he has had a stab at it , but safe in the knowledge that failing to land one will not cost him his job . The Gooner posting above is very pertinent and extremely relevant to our current situation .
Only last week Poch said that winning the FA Cup would not progress the club ( the Project?) which I thought was bizarre given the timing.
Ex has confirmed my thoughts that he has exceeded expectations this season by keeping us in contention for the Champions League and if he achieves that ,everything will be rosy in the boardroom but not in local drinking establishments.
His post match comment that next year it may be prudent to play the development squad players in the cups only backs up the" Philosophy"

So what are we saying mate, that we are looking at four years fighting and mostly successfully retaining a top four place and no silverware? If that's the reality who is up for that ride. I rewatch video of:crooks, Archibald and Perryman winning us trophies. I don't do the same of Pleat's 3rd place' side (who were better than keith's side by the way). It's actually annexistential question. Why do we watch?
 
How long will the project go on until we can actually set ourselves clear success goals of winning titles? Right now it's all rather vague.
 
So what are we saying mate, that we are looking at four years fighting and mostly successfully retaining a top four place and no silverware? If that's the reality who is up for that ride. I rewatch video of:crooks, Archibald and Perryman winning us trophies. I don't do the same of Pleat's 3rd place' side (who were better than keith's side by the way). It's actually annexistential question. Why do we watch?

Perhaps I am too close to some people associated with the club and accept their interpretation of what the 'Project' was is - Poch was recruited to lift the club into the top competitive tier of the PL. He was made comprehensively aware of the huge investment we'd made in our Academy/training centre and what had to our scouting set-up (which was happening, has happened and is continuing) along with the whole coaching set-up; as 'success' was partly defined as bringing through one player per season - or at least one that we could sell which would make the ROI on the academy significant - and we've done that.

Beyond that, it was completely and totally understood that Poch and the Club had a 7-10 year timeline to build the stadium to boost revenues to the point where it would allow a different approach to squad acquistion and retention to the one we have had in recent memory (build/produce young players that can be improved and have enhanced sales values that the club can cash-in on as needed).

Poch has so far met and exceeded these expectations from the board; next comes the new stadium, new increasing budgets and less of the 'pay me what I'm worth' type stuff we have to suffer and then player retention can be made on the coaches views, not financial impact ones.

The same will go for acquistion - buying players who may actually be at their peak, instead of players leading up to it and then being prepared to suffer losses on future sales , even after amoritisation.

It's why Poch signed a seven-year deal; as the lore is he put the board on the spot and said; if that's your 'Project' plan - put your contract where your mouth is, and the club did.

Now from next season we are on the second phase of the project; top tier competiveness has been established (although no one will be complacent) and next comes the focus on winning Silverware - squad depth and better quality additions from now on should go a long way to help making that happen. (The discontent is Poch's view of what's worth winning and the statement it makes as opposed to starving fans view of nearly decades of being also-rans).

Phase two timeline starts after the project finance facilities is fully replaced by long term finance. Available spending budgets will then become crystal clear and it will be a long way up from where they are now.

So I see financial impact on our squad dynamics hitting in around 2-3 seasons time.

I expect to be in finals/in the mix fro PL titles from then, and hopefully winning a few.

It's taken Liverpool over ten years to get to the same point, and they had a huge starting advantage over us.

So if anyone has expecations before then, whilst we might be suprised, I think the big impact on spend and squad will come 2020 and beyond - then we need to winning silverware on a regular basis.
 
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