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Millwall v Forest match thread

If you don't think there is a crisis in the health service that is being exacerbated by brexit then you are being willfully blind to the facts.

Trade deals are not independence. They are interdependence.
Moreover, WTO rules mean that a sweet deal with one country has to be the same for others. We have a lot of sweet trade deals right around the world. Sweet because we negotiated them as the most powerful bloc in the world.


Anything that scares you about Merkel and Macron can be vetoed, and/or we could leave a a future date if your vague scaremongering comes true, as unlikely as that might be. If we leave, we will have no influence over the course the EU takes.

If there were any way that Brexit could be a success then I would be behind it, with you. But it is paradoxical and fantastical. It cannot work in the way that some brexiters want it to. And it cannot work in the different way that the other brexiters want it to either.

Claiming there will be a workable fudge in Ireland is optimistic and based on thin air. What could it be? You and other brexiters keep saying that something will work but there are no plans. At all.

It is perfectly acceptable, and indeed desirable, for governments and oppositions to change policy based on new information. A change will be driven by the people. A representative democracy should be able to steer the best and most informed course without turning to the people between elections, but in any case, the tide has turned in popular opinion as well.

Give the people the vote on the negotiated deal.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Well, taking the final paragraph first I would argue that that just tears apart your entire argument for Brexit.

If you genuinly have no issue with conceding elements of soverignty and national power for mutual economic benefit, then why are we leaving and why are you supporting it?

Your second point lost me well before you mentioned World War Two, which I think is pretty appalling in this debate. I don't need you to give me an invented, Mail sanitized history lesson of what you believe was the origin of the EU and your assertion that that unnecessary point is somehow related to the point I made about Brexit harming the EU is baffling.

We are the 'aggressor'. You can't tell your colleagues that you think they are all *****, the workplace is shit and you are fucking off freelance, see ya later wankers and then be surprised that you aren't invited to the Christmas party nor receive future shares of the tips jar.

The EU was ticking over nicely enough. We are the ones who had the problem, we have then passed that problem on to them. If you want any kind of indication where Great Britain stands in the big wide world, take a look at the utter embarrassment that have been these Brexit negotiations where we have barely won a single point and the 'negotiating' takes the form of the EU dictating to us and us delaying as long as possible before capitulating.

That's not the big bad EU being disciples of Skeletor; that's a huge powerful country taking what it wants from a tiny insignificant one. That's exactly what your Brexit mates promised WE would be able to do to others.

You can be angry at the EU all you like Tom's, and I do genuinly understand why you are- but this is our fault, not theirs. We made the worst decision (IMO) in living memory, not them. It is not encumbant upon them to give us everything we want and it's quite harmful to them to do so
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Jesus wept, you're a teacher? This is a public forum which is no doubt used by kids for God's sake, do you use that kind of language with your students?
 
toms said:
Sorry exactly what level are you talking about ITTO? Another cheap shot. Doing a trade deal on your own back is nothing like someone else doing it for you? Its called independence. This is desperate stuff. Everything is a crisis to you. This is exactly the mantra you want to create. You are utterly desperate for Brexit to fail. Always have been, always will be. Any loss of any sovereignty pales into insignificance with what is coming under Merkel and Macron's EU

You cant judge Brexit via the next global recession (which will soon come). Brexit can only be judged over a generation

As for Ireland I haven't got the answer but I'm sure they will fudge it, but if they cant the government will fall and you will get Corbyn and ofcourse he will have the chance to do things his way-so either way a deal will get done. The DUP will have to live with a fudge because otherwise they will have a Corbyn Government to contend with-believe me they don't want that

And if either the Tories or Corbyn renege on their manisfesto promises to get us out, you will have things your way

Every way you look at it...there will be no Armageddon, which totally destroys the main remain argument.
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"The DUP will have to live with a fudge because otherwise they will have a Corbyn Government to contend with-believe me they don't want that"

An Election before a deal is agreed with the EU will be a de facto referendum; all of the main protagonists, including the EU, know that.

The EU know that the DUP will not accept a fudge under any circumstances; that is why they are pushing so hard for a deal.

The only deal that will work will be far too unpalatable for the DUP to even consider.

The DUP will walk away from their support arrangement and May will then have to go, replaced most probably by someone who does not want any deal.

Once it becomes clear to the people in business, who decide on where to invest, that there will be no deal, you will start to see job losses.

It might not be the Armageddon as you call it, but it wont be pretty.
 
in_the_top_one said:
If you don't think there is a crisis in the health service that is being exacerbated by brexit then you are being willfully blind to the facts.

Trade deals are not independence. They are interdependence.
Moreover, WTO rules mean that a sweet deal with one country has to be the same for others. We have a lot of sweet trade deals right around the world. Sweet because we negotiated them as the most powerful bloc in the world.


Anything that scares you about Merkel and Macron can be vetoed, and/or we could leave a a future date if your vague scaremongering comes true, as unlikely as that might be. If we leave, we will have no influence over the course the EU takes.

If there were any way that Brexit could be a success then I would be behind it, with you. But it is paradoxical and fantastical. It cannot work in the way that some brexiters want it to. And it cannot work in the different way that the other brexiters want it to either.

Claiming there will be a workable fudge in Ireland is optimistic and based on thin air. What could it be? You and other brexiters keep saying that something will work but there are no plans. At all.

It is perfectly acceptable, and indeed desirable, for governments and oppositions to change policy based on new information. A change will be driven by the people. A representative democracy should be able to steer the best and most informed course without turning to the people between elections, but in any case, the tide has turned in popular opinion as well.

Give the people the vote on the negotiated deal.
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Toms, I was going to type a reply but IT TO had already done a better one for me.

Your so called independence is either given over in part to the EU in exchange for huge collective power, or it is handed over on small parcels, a death by a thousand cuts.

Just look at what is being mooted for a deal with our "greatest ally". In exchange for who knows what, we lose control over our food standards and potentially have to invite rampant, possibly ideologically driven and funded private healthcare firms in to trash our NHS. And that's only the early suggestions we have heard about.

True independence simply doesn't exist. You think a deal with Pakistan or india won't involve some element of free(er) movement of labour or some other concession that the political right would find unpalatable?

It's not like we have bargaining power. Starting at zero (probably on crippling WTO rules) everyone can tell us 'take it or leave it', which as a member of the EU is exactly what we used to be able to say. I asked you for a comparable European nation in terms of Economy and population size that has successfully gone it alone. Is there one?

Every possible distant future utopian mankind scenario involves all the countries of the world doing the exact opposite of what we have just done. It's sad really.

As for Ireland, there is no solution. I would not be surprised if this were not the issue that brought down the government. Currently the only solution is to kick the can down the road and hope something completely unexpected happens to change a completely intractable situation
 
I'll wager a few memos get leaked before to long of ministers saying we should leave them to it, force them to reunite, or similarly insensitive and detached from reality comment. More resignations, then collapse. Shame Rudd will still harbour dreams of the top and won't spill the beans on cabinet shambles.
 
Quiz:

Before the referendum,

1. Who said,
"
I believe that the best way forward is for Britain to renegotiate a new relationship with the European Union – one based on an economic partnership involving a customs union and a single market in goods and services.
"

2. Who said,
"When we have determined the relationship we seek we must set a negotiating timetable with a referendum at the end."

We must be willing to trust the judgment and wisdom of the British people.
"

3. Who said,
"
My preference would be that we should remain within the Customs Union of the EU.
What this means is that we would have to maintain a common external tariff barrier (only about 2.4% on non agricultural goods) and give up some freedoms in terms of negotiating our trading arrangements with third countries.
The advantage would be that our manufacturers would not face complex and punitive “rules of origin” tariffs if parts of their products were made in, say, China.
"

4. Who said the irish border would be "absolutely unchanged"?
 
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