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Millwall v Forest match thread

Do you realise that you just posted the results of a poll that showed a small margin in favour of Remain?

That poll was limited to Wales, where people originally voted to leave. So the tide has indeed turned, even in Wales. Thanks for making my point so well!

The second referendum would be a more informed referendum. Regardless of your reasons for voting out, neither you, nor I, nor Jacob Rees Mogg, could possibly have known the outcome of the negotiations. If they turn out to be better than what we have, the people - me included - will vote for it. But so far so bad. Even David Davis' own department couldn't conjure
up figures that were any better than devastating. That's why he lied to parliament about their existence. Shameful.
Add to that the criminal damage that has already occurred to the NHS and people will realise that this is not worth it. Nor even close.

(Toms would interject here to say that we still won't know the *long term* effects and he optimistically predicts sunlit uplands and unicorns for all. He and you are entitled to be dreamers but the opinion is based on no evidence and - importantly - goes against expert opinion which is imperfect but the best we have.)


Let the people have their say on the best information available. The options should include out with no deal, out on the negotiated terms, or remain. This started with a vote and has to end with one. What are you scared of?
 
Cracking post Boszi. Dont let these lizard bastards grind you down

Dont worry about that Apollyon, I understand the stance they take, they have got to try and make me out to be a nutcase, it's a stratergy their cognitive dissonance disorder adapts to protect them, their whole mental state crumbles if i'm right and the controlled government is feeding them constant lies, they cannot face up to being duped.

Btw did they ever find Saddams Weapons of Mass Destruction that could attack UK in 30mins?
 
For those not familiar with the term cognitive dissonance..

Cognitive Dissonance
A psychological term for the discomfort that most people feel when they encounter information which contradicts their existing set of beliefs or values.

What it feels like:
People who are experiencing cognitive dissonance may adopt a pattern of denial, diversion and defensiveness to control their discomfort.
 
The polls said there was a remain majority on the day we voted leave ! You have conveniently skipped the fact that whilst there is always a margin of error, there is a clear majority of people not wanting a second referendum, on this poll. Where did the i find their 220,000 pollsters? Most independent polls only cover a small number of people (1,000?). If they are claiming this poll covered 220,000 people, is that their left wing readership or a proper attempt at getting a proper sample?

You still haven't put what a second referendum would say, as there are now far more than 2 options - leave no matter what, leave with the negotiated deal, leave but go back and renegotiate, remain unless we get a better deal, remain no matter what etc
 
Sorry. Thought I had.

It is covered here..
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/big-brexit-survey-eu-uk-single-market-membership/
That's the first Google hit. I did find and read the full report but can't see it right now. I'm sure you can find it somewhere.


Interesting stuff.

A large sample, not clear how controlled it was or how far any efforts went to ensure a representative split between leave-remain. Would have been interesting to know the numbers for how participants actually voted in the referendum rather than proportions of the total which would give an indication of how skewed the sample is either way.

Think its far too much of a generalisation to say that "the tide has turned" and that droves of leave voters have about turned - poll from Bloomberg suggests otherwise:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-04-19/brexit-sentiments-remain-stronger-than-ever

Whilst this alludes to a hypothetical scenario and hence has some caveats, the sample was controlled and indicates that neither leavers or remainers will/would seize any opportunity to rejoin the EU.
 
Here you go Apollyon, a couple of videos which may help demonstrate who is cognitively impaired. The second one almost brought a tear to my eye. The brave woman even challenges Itto and the like towards the end of the video let's see if they are brave enough to do so.


 
The signpost reads Brexit Dreamland but the road leads off a societal and economic cliff edge. The drivers are fuckwits.

The so called technical solution to the Irish border does not exist. Even dexeu confident of that fact. That is why they have not bothered to approach a single entity to ask how it might work. Yet they claim loudly that it will be done by October. Unbelievable.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/b...nsult-on-technical-solutions-to-irish-border/
 
Bozsi, you were telling us before the referendum that the establishment would prevent a Brexit outcome. Then you told us that it was only so close because the figures had been manipulated. Now it was their plan all along because of a Syrian pipeline? It is too hard to keep up with your incoherent shifting position so I will be engaging with you less in future.
 
ITTO you still don't get it. Brexiteers knew we would leave the single market/ customs union and there would be an economic hit. We were told in no uncertain terms that armaggedon would occur. It has not. Brexiteers simply want more control over money, laws and borders.

You cannot have a vote on a deal which does not fully set out the considerable opportunities that would arise from us doing our own deals around the world over the next 25 years. You would also have to factor in that we would be losing our rebate almost certainly.

I find it incredible that you want to continue to be chained to an institution that has acted in such an appalling way towards us. Are they acting for the people they represent or the protections of their institutions? What a ridiculous notion that you must absolutely have free movement of people (as opposed to workers who have secured employment) for the other freedoms to apply. Rubbish.
 
I think everything in that post is wrong so I don't know where to start. It has all been pointed out to you before.

I suppose the bit about money, laws and borders has a ring of truth for some brexiters. The money was about our 350m 'contribution'. Literally sod all about the CU or SM, in fact most brexiters wanted to stay in both of those institutions while Farage and Hannan were supporting the Norway model.

How do we sort out our Irish border?
 
ITTO you still don't get it. Brexiteers knew we would leave the single market/ customs union and there would be an economic hit. We were told in no uncertain terms that armaggedon would occur. It has not. Brexiteers simply want more control over money, laws and borders.

You cannot have a vote on a deal which does not fully set out the considerable opportunities that would arise from us doing our own deals around the world over the next 25 years. You would also have to factor in that we would be losing our rebate almost certainly.

I find it incredible that you want to continue to be chained to an institution that has acted in such an appalling way towards us. Are they acting for the people they represent or the protections of their institutions? What a ridiculous notion that you must absolutely have free movement of people (as opposed to workers who have secured employment) for the other freedoms to apply. Rubbish.

How exactly do you have more control in a global society?

You have more control by being a big player, not a small one.

Every one of these amazing individual deals that not one single country has been interested in even discussing with us will limit our control over something that has been 'taken back' from Brexit. Each one of these deals will require us to compromise and give something away, whether that be movement of labour between the countries or something else.

You end up giving less away if you have more to bargain with, but that requires you to be a huge power like the USA, China... Or EU. Being part of the USA would curtail our powers to do things, just as being part of the EU would.

So, go it alone- and we lose control by a thousand cuts through these individual deals. Be with a big power and you lose some control directly. Welcome to the global world of the 21st century.

The best bit is, the better the deal you do economically the more control you will lose between yourself and that country! And that works in reverse too!

Just wait and see what juicy earthquakes of devastation the Americans want in exchange for even the most rudimentary of deals, in comparison to what they were set to agree with the EU before they elected a lunatic
 
Do you realise that you just posted the results of a poll that showed a small margin in favour of Remain?

That poll was limited to Wales, where people originally voted to leave. So the tide has indeed turned, even in Wales. Thanks for making my point so well!

The second referendum would be a more informed referendum. Regardless of your reasons for voting out, neither you, nor I, nor Jacob Rees Mogg, could possibly have known the outcome of the negotiations. If they turn out to be better than what we have, the people - me included - will vote for it. But so far so bad. Even David Davis' own department couldn't conjure
up figures that were any better than devastating. That's why he lied to parliament about their existence. Shameful.
Add to that the criminal damage that has already occurred to the NHS and people will realise that this is not worth it. Nor even close.

(Toms would interject here to say that we still won't know the *long term* effects and he optimistically predicts sunlit uplands and unicorns for all. He and you are entitled to be dreamers but the opinion is based on no evidence and - importantly - goes against expert opinion which is imperfect but the best we have.)


Let the people have their say on the best information available. The options should include out with no deal, out on the negotiated terms, or remain. This started with a vote and has to end with one. What are you scared of?
I think everything in that post is wrong so I don't know where to start. It has all been pointed out to you before.

I suppose the bit about money, laws and borders has a ring of truth for some brexiters. The money was about our 350m 'contribution'. Literally sod all about the CU or SM, in fact most brexiters wanted to stay in both of those institutions while Farage and Hannan were supporting the Norway model.

How do we sort out our Irish border?

That's reasonably condescending ITTO. Please read the government leaflet. Everyone knew what this was about. Everyone was told Armageddon would ensue. Is that not right?

Sorting out the Irish border issue is just as much an EU problem. Suggest things are left as they are with technology used. Alternatively a number of checkpoints with trade related matters only permitted via 2 or 3 main entry points. Im not a politician. Suggestions have been made and all rejected . Surprise, surprise

Your post about things turning in Wales. Ok, lets say it has even though true voting intention is very different from the polls. After 2 years of Remainers continuously being unable to accept the result (despite their ridiculous protestations), its hardly surprising. Brexiteers have been largely silent.

Let's wait for the final deal and see. If parliament do not accept it, its WTTO because people voted to leave the EU. We wont get our rebate back. If you think we will be treated like some sort of prodigal son...we wont be. We will be very weak within the EU institutions, reminded continuously of our "aberration"

And Pope...yes I do think its possible to be a successful nation outside a large political institutional block. There are many examples all around the world.

This is quite simple-on the basis that I don't want the UK to harm the EU in any way shape or form , I would expect the EU not to want to harm the UK. I would expect both parties to reach a fair compromise. If the EU is not willing to reciprocate, then this shows what they are capable of and presumably how other third countries are dealt with. How can you support that?
 
And Pope...yes I do think its possible to be a successful nation outside a large political institutional block. There are many examples all around the world.

This is quite simple-on the basis that I don't want the UK to harm the EU in any way shape or form , I would expect the EU not to want to harm the UK. I would expect both parties to reach a fair compromise. If the EU is not willing to reciprocate, then this shows what they are capable of and presumably how other third countries are dealt with. How can you support that?

But the UK is harming the EU- economically, politically and ideologically. It's hard to imagine how the UK could actually have inflicted more harm upon the EU other than by provoking armed conflict.

In the face of the attitude we have shown to the European project and the ammunition we have given to it's detractors, I am amazed the EU has treated us as well as they have. It would be politically expedient for them to offer us a no deal and demonstrate to the other 27 members just what happens when you swallow the nationalist pill.

As for being successful outside the EU, I'm sure there are successful examples. But how many successful examples are there on the European continent of democratic nations with a 60m population (as opposed to 5m) and not all that much in the way of lucrative natural resources?

And whoever that country is, why aren't we trying to follow their model rather than the basket case non strategy we are following now?

You have also ignored the most salient point as well- that ANY individual trade deal we make will bring concessions that by their nature take away some of the supposed power we are getting back
 
Pope the European project start as a straight trade cooperation between 7-8 countries. It has morphed into something quite different. I don't really see how you can say we provoked anything. We were instrumental together with the Americans in the 2nd world war and we have pretty much stuck to what we signed up for...the fact that we may not have wanted further political integration and through this vote have now resisted eu control creep is hardly a recipe for the way we are being treated.

As to your salient point, I don't mind that at all. That's the nature of any commercial deal. Concessions both ways. Its a trade deal. And as I have said , if that entails more skilled immigration from a non European country fine by me
 
Pope the European project start as a straight trade cooperation between 7-8 countries. It has morphed into something quite different. I don't really see how you can say we provoked anything. We were instrumental together with the Americans in the 2nd world war and we have pretty much stuck to what we signed up for...the fact that we may not have wanted further political integration and through this vote have now resisted eu control creep is hardly a recipe for the way we are being treated.

As to your salient point, I don't mind that at all. That's the nature of any commercial deal. Concessions both ways. Its a trade deal. And as I have said , if that entails more skilled immigration from a non European country fine by me

Well, taking the final paragraph first I would argue that that just tears apart your entire argument for Brexit.

If you genuinly have no issue with conceding elements of soverignty and national power for mutual economic benefit, then why are we leaving and why are you supporting it?

Your second point lost me well before you mentioned World War Two, which I think is pretty appalling in this debate. I don't need you to give me an invented, Mail sanitized history lesson of what you believe was the origin of the EU and your assertion that that unnecessary point is somehow related to the point I made about Brexit harming the EU is baffling.

We are the 'aggressor'. You can't tell your colleagues that you think they are all *****, the workplace is shit and you are fucking off freelance, see ya later wankers and then be surprised that you aren't invited to the Christmas party nor receive future shares of the tips jar.

The EU was ticking over nicely enough. We are the ones who had the problem, we have then passed that problem on to them. If you want any kind of indication where Great Britain stands in the big wide world, take a look at the utter embarrassment that have been these Brexit negotiations where we have barely won a single point and the 'negotiating' takes the form of the EU dictating to us and us delaying as long as possible before capitulating.

That's not the big bad EU being disciples of Skeletor; that's a huge powerful country taking what it wants from a tiny insignificant one. That's exactly what your Brexit mates promised WE would be able to do to others.

You can be angry at the EU all you like Tom's, and I do genuinly understand why you are- but this is our fault, not theirs. We made the worst decision (IMO) in living memory, not them. It is not encumbant upon them to give us everything we want and it's quite harmful to them to do so
 
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How does it tear apart my argument? How is the UK doing an economic deal with another country /bloc for itself and purely in the interests of the British people and their economy blowing my argument apart? It is a trade deal pure and simple

With regard to the rest of what you say, I don't think the UK is doing any of those things. It is simply saying you cant change and the extent of political integration wanted by the Macron's of the world is not for us. At the same time, it has been made quite clear that we want a strong partnership on a number of significant matters. I don't see the problem. This is more akin to a supplier changing the terms of conditions and you saying, I cant do this anymore but Id be happy to do this.

The fact you are calling the EU a country is precisely the point quite frankly. No brexit mate of mine as you call it ever indicated we would take advantage of others. Look, I appreciate there is often a stronger party in a negotiation but they need our money and our future trade and that very well my be the case when we negotiate with other countries in the future. I personally don't think we have capitulated at all. Have we paid any money over yet? I think the points we have "capitulated on" are quite reasonable. Rights for existing EU citizens for example. £35 billion over a number of years set off against what we planned to contribute if we had remained (roughly 10 billion a year) not a capitulation. I understand the current position on the ECJ is that we have to have regard to their decisions

Personally I think the Brexit team is doing a very difficult job in the face of extreme positions in both sides. Personally, its enough for me that we can do our own deals, control what we do with our money and have parliament as sovereign to decide our future. I don't consider this to be an extreme position. And these are critical matters which I do not think a set of politicians in entirely different countries should be taking. That is where it is heading
 
Everyone was told Armageddon would ensue. Is that not right?

It's difficult not to be condescending when this is the level.
No. It isn't right.

Pope is entirely correct about what a trade deal involves and why your position isn't internally consistent. They involve give and take and a loss of sovereignty for greater mutual gain. This is exactly what we have worked for for 40 years as a leading member of the EU and, on top of that, we have the enormous clout of a market of 550m.

We were, are, and probably always will be sovereign in our lifetimes.
Decisions taken in Brussels were decisions that we made, for our benefit.

You might want to read a bit about the WTO and the concept of most favoured nation status. That is, there can be no most favoured nation.

We have an NHS crisis, a housing crisis, crises here, there and everywhere. Brexit is making everything worse.


Regarding Ireland and Northern Ireland.. "Suggest things are left as they are with technology used." What technology?? If solutions really did exist, don't you think dexeu would/should have investigated them? Don't you think they would have presented them to the public? Or the various leaders on the island of Ireland? Not even the DUP have the foggiest. The suggestions have been rejected because they cannot possibly resolve the paradox. How can your idea of a few checkpoints possibly work if we are "to take control of our borders"?
Saying, "I'm not a politician but...", or "I'm not an engineer but.." is absolving everyone of responsibility while pointing the finger of blame at the EU for being unreasonable. It is childish.
 
It's difficult not to be condescending when this is the level.
No. It isn't right.

Pope is entirely correct about what a trade deal involves and why your position isn't internally consistent. They involve give and take and a loss of sovereignty for greater mutual gain. This is exactly what we have worked for for 40 years as a leading member of the EU and, on top of that, we have the enormous clout of a market of 550m.

We were, are, and probably always will be sovereign in our lifetimes.
Decisions taken in Brussels were decisions that we made, for our benefit.

You might want to read a bit about the WTO and the concept of most favoured nation status. That is, there can be no most favoured nation.

We have an NHS crisis, a housing crisis, crises here, there and everywhere. Brexit is making everything worse.


Regarding Ireland and Northern Ireland.. "Suggest things are left as they are with technology used." What technology?? If solutions really did exist, don't you think dexeu would/should have investigated them? Don't you think they would have presented them to the public? Or the various leaders on the island of Ireland? Not even the DUP have the foggiest. The suggestions have been rejected because they cannot possibly resolve the paradox. How can your idea of a few checkpoints possibly work if we are "to take control of our borders"?
Saying, "I'm not a politician but...", or "I'm not an engineer but.." is absolving everyone of responsibility while pointing the finger of blame at the EU for being unreasonable. It is childish.

Sorry exactly what level are you talking about ITTO? Another cheap shot. Doing a trade deal on your own back is nothing like someone else doing it for you? Its called independence. This is desperate stuff. Everything is a crisis to you. This is exactly the mantra you want to create. You are utterly desperate for Brexit to fail. Always have been, always will be. Any loss of any sovereignty pales into insignificance with what is coming under Merkel and Macron's EU

You cant judge Brexit via the next global recession (which will soon come). Brexit can only be judged over a generation

As for Ireland I haven't got the answer but I'm sure they will fudge it, but if they cant the government will fall and you will get Corbyn and ofcourse he will have the chance to do things his way-so either way a deal will get done. The DUP will have to live with a fudge because otherwise they will have a Corbyn Government to contend with-believe me they don't want that

And if either the Tories or Corbyn renege on their manisfesto promises to get us out, you will have things your way

Every way you look at it...there will be no Armageddon, which totally destroys the main remain argument.
 
The EU is a protectionist, failing bloc that will unravel soon enough.

That should get another few pages out of the Milwall thread :grinning:.

You have to check out of this for your sanity Toms...