Knife crime epidemic | Page 3 | Vital Football

Knife crime epidemic

I live in London and knife crime is a huge concern, particularly when associated with muggings.

I've not had too much trouble over the years though had a guy come up to me in the bar at The Sanderson Hotel, grab my arm and take a keen interest in my watch.
 
Nobby_66 said:
Agreed, problem back then though was that on top of the problems I mentioned, there was (rightly) a massive problem with mistrust towards the police from Black communities (let's not be nervous here, gangs in cities are predominantly made up of young black lads, that is fact not stereotype) because of the Lawrence murder and subsequent investigation. None of which was helped by the use of the phrase "institutional racism" which some of the public read as "Police officers are racist".
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I'm not gonna even talk about racism and the police. I don't want to start an argument with you, nobs, or anyone for that matter, about the police.

But let's focus on your other point, that the gangs in cities are predominantly made up of young black lads. I say you're correct in this assessment. What I'd like to ask you is why do you think this is? I know that you're not a racist so you're not gonna answer this with some silly racist remark (though I'm sure you'd agree, some people would), so why do you think it is that inner-city gangs are predominantly made up of young black lads? Can you think of any preventative measures that could be taken so as to minimise the likelihood of things continuing in this vein? Or do you think that's liberal bullshit and that what's needed is further reactive measures?

And what about getting the local communities to talk? As you said, they're not talking because they're scared, it's not down to loyalty to the gang members. What things do you think could be done to change the situation?
 
LancsGordoRoad said:
Resourcing continues to be a huge issue for police. Watch your local news for upcoming changes at Kent Police HQ - they might call it consolidation......
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More housing Lancs.
Maidstone needs more housing?
I’ve been told that they are relocating to the big nick at Gravesend.
 
Buddha said:
But let's focus on your other point, that the gangs in cities are predominantly made up of young black lads. I say you're correct in this assessment. What I'd like to ask you is why do you think this is? I know that you're not a racist so you're not gonna answer this with some silly racist remark (though I'm sure you'd agree, some people would), so why do you think it is that inner-city gangs are predominantly made up of young black lads? Can you think of any preventative measures that could be taken so as to minimise the likelihood of things continuing in this vein? Or do you think that's liberal bullshit and that what's needed is further reactive measures?
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Poor housing, some excluded from school, many of them probably pissed off having to see their parents/parent scrapping a living perhaps even holding down two jobs to survive, others relying on food banks and welfare cheques and the youngsters only feel part of society by being part of a gang.
The "gang" is more of a "family" than anything they have experienced, they feel part of something and adrift from the rest of society, they believe what the gang says and does, the rest of the world can go to hell.
What is the answer, well a number of gang members as they grew into adulthood have tried to address the issues over gangs had tried to run youth clubs in an effort to get them off the streets and to tell them there is more in life than being in a gang, but that is not enough.
They need an basic education, they need something to interest them when they leave school, apprenticeships, training, anything to encourage them to make something of their lives, encouragement is the key, kids of all colour, religion, size or sex need to know the road map of life, not just some dead end street.
 
Agreed Whitstable, I've been waiting to get time to post as I knew it would be a long one but you've covered just about everything I wanted to say.
All I would add is that in the more poverty stricken areas there seems to be a lack of positive role models. I don't know why (something cultural??) but in a very high percentage of young black lads that have got into trouble with gangs, there has been no father around or a father who also leads a dubious lifestyle. The absent fathers also tend to have children with other women and don't appear to pay much interest in their kids.
This isn't a sweeping racial slur, just an observation based on my own experience (although some years old now) and would add to what Whitstable has said about considering their gang as a family as the gang leaders are looked up to as father figures and someone to learn from until they become leaders themselves.
What is interesting is that the number if over 18yo gang members now outnumber those under 18 so maybe the cycle us being broken?
We can only hope.
 
Nobby_66 said:
Agreed Whitstable, I've been waiting to get time to post as I knew it would be a long one but you've covered just about everything I wanted to say.
All I would add is that in the more poverty stricken areas there seems to be a lack of positive role models. I don't know why (something cultural??) but in a very high percentage of young black lads that have got into trouble with gangs, there has been no father around or a father who also leads a dubious lifestyle. The absent fathers also tend to have children with other women and don't appear to pay much interest in their kids.
This isn't a sweeping racial slur, just an observation based on my own experience (although some years old now) and would add to what Whitstable has said about considering their gang as a family as the gang leaders are looked up to as father figures and someone to learn from until they become leaders themselves.
What is interesting is that the number if over 18yo gang members now outnumber those under 18 so maybe the cycle us being broken?
We can only hope.
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Let's hope so, nobs.

Only point I'd make is that there are lots of absent fathers white fathers too. I suppose that the white kids who grow up without a father are disadvantaged in the same way but at least they have white skin, so they're not quite as disadvantaged as those with black skin.

That sounded racist, lol. Obviously, it's not their fault that their black skin is a disadvantage, and obviously again, it should not be a disadvantage anyway!
 
Nobby_66 said:
All I would add is that in the more poverty stricken areas there seems to be a lack of positive role models. I don't know why (something cultural??) but in a very high percentage of young black lads that have got into trouble with gangs, there has been no father around or a father who also leads a dubious lifestyle. The absent fathers also tend to have children with other women and don't appear to pay much interest in their kids.
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You are absolutely right with this, Nobby, and, many community workers in inner London would agree with your comment. The problem is though, that trying to have a constructive conversation around this issue remains easily hi-jacked by those whose who portray such concerns as having racist undertones.
 
LancsGordoRoad said:
You are absolutely right with this, Nobby, and, many community workers in inner London would agree with your comment. The problem is though, that trying to have a constructive conversation around this issue remains easily hi-jacked by those whose who portray such concerns as having racist undertones.
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Only if the suggestion is that it is only, or predominantly, black sons who grow up without a father.

Truth is that this is all to do with poverty. And if you're a black person living in this country there is a much greater chance that you will have experienced living in poverty than if you are a white person.

Tackle poverty and you'll tackle knife crime at the same time. Gangs and associated knife crime is a symptom of the problem. Remove the problem and the symptoms will disappear.
 
Buddha said:
Only if the suggestion is that it is only, or predominantly, black sons who grow up without a father.

Truth is that this is all to do with poverty. And if you're a black person living in this country there is a much greater chance that you will have experienced living in poverty than if you are a white person.

Tackle poverty and you'll tackle knife crime at the same time. Gangs and associated knife crime is a symptom of the problem. Remove the problem and the symptoms will disappear.
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Agree that poverty does`nt lend itself to social cohesion - wherever in the world one is. But Nobs was talking specifically about absent fathers in black communities and there are many community workers in inner London and other urban areas that will reinforce that notion to which Nobs alluded. I think we should listen more to what people from black community have to say about it all, trouble is, as I implied earlier, there are too many "voices", mostly political, who would hi-jack the discussion for their own means. People have been trying to have this discussion for years.

More than ten years ago David Cameron called for black fathers to take more responsibility for their children when he echoed the words of Barack Obama who called for absent black fathers to take more responsibility for their children.

People from London`s black community, such as Tony Sewell, have been trying to get traction for this discussion for years - but he has struggled to get sufficient media coverage to do so. It`s very important that we listen to the objective ground level commentary that comes out of the black community. There are womens` groups in London trying to address the issue. Hopefully, one or more of them will one day be given the platform they deserve and drive forward a solution. The problem may well be male oriented but it will possibly only be addressed when influential women can progress a solution in an open forum.
 
Buddha said:
Only if the suggestion is that it is only, or predominantly, black sons who grow up without a father.

Truth is that this is all to do with poverty. And if you're a black person living in this country there is a much greater chance that you will have experienced living in poverty than if you are a white person.

Tackle poverty and you'll tackle knife crime at the same time. Gangs and associated knife crime is a symptom of the problem. Remove the problem and the symptoms will disappear.
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Problem is Bud that in and around cities (where poverty is more rife) it really is more prominent in black communities (i feel like I'm really setting myself up here, especially considering my profession) but as I said earlier, thats not some sweeping generalisation, its born from personal experience.
When The Met's gangs matrix was publicised, black community groups criticised it because it was, IIRC, about 90% black populated but how can you criticise fact? It was also noted how many of the people on it (can't remember the figures but it was disproportionately high)came from fractured or "single parent" families.
This is in no way a criticism of black culture or the way black people live their lives, merely an observation based on experience on my part and data and intelligence on the Met's . As Lancs says, until people are brave enough to have the discussion without the fear of being labelled racist, the cycle will go on.
 
That’s exactly why so many shrug and say, oh, it’s black kids stabbing black kids
Few want to take on the argument.

When there is a major incident in London, you cannot move for‘community leaders’
I feel that this is something that can only be resolved by the community.
 
shotshy said:
That’s exactly why so many shrug and say, oh, it’s black kids stabbing black kids
Few want to take on the argument.

When there is a major incident in London, you cannot move for‘community leaders’
I feel that this is something that can only be resolved by the community.
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Absolutely but with help from police, govt and social services otherwise we stay with the "its OK, we'll sort it between ourselves" scenario
 
Nobby_66 said:
Problem is Bud that in and around cities (where poverty is more rife) it really is more prominent in black communities (i feel like I'm really setting myself up here, especially considering my profession) but as I said earlier, thats not some sweeping generalisation, its born from personal experience.
When The Met's gangs matrix was publicised, black community groups criticised it because it was, IIRC, about 90% black populated but how can you criticise fact? It was also noted how many of the people on it (can't remember the figures but it was disproportionately high)came from fractured or "single parent" families.
This is in no way a criticism of black culture or the way black people live their lives, merely an observation based on experience on my part and data and intelligence on the Met's . As Lancs says, until people are brave enough to have the discussion without the fear of being labelled racist, the cycle will go on.
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I agree completely that there needs to be an honest and open discussion without the fear of either racism or unfair labelling of racism when there isn't any.

Unfortunately it's gonna take many years for the police to change the perception (within the black community especially) that they are institutionally racist. I'm damn sure much effort has been made to change the ways of the past but I'm afraid that for far too many years the police DID discriminate against black people. Some would say they still do. But that is debatable, and I'm not here saying that you, or any of your colleagues are racist. ]

My point is that because of the behaviour of your colleagues of old, there needs to be a sustained campaign to redress the balance over the course of two or three generations. Even then there may still be those within the black community who wont trust the police, but then that will probably always be the case. Just as there is a percentage of people who, regardless of the colour of their skin, will never trust the police. However, if it is only a small minority then it isn't a problem. Just so long as most people support you and your colleagues, you'll be in a position to deal with the criminal element effectively.

I have no figures to support this so I know that I might have it wrong but I find it hard to believe that a greater proportion of black kids have no father figure than the proportion of white kids from the underclass who have no father figure. It just seems disproportionate because a much larger proportion of black families overall also form part of the underclass than the proportion of white families overall who are part of the underclass.

This really isn't a black/white issue. It is a poverty issue. As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, knife and razor gangs have existed in this country long before the Windrush signalled an influx of black skinned people coming to live in this country. The thing that connects those white gangs of the past and the black gangs of the present is poverty.

If you really want to break the cycle then it's poverty that needs to be tackled. By continuing to insist that this is predominantly a black issue is to miss the point and, albeit unintentionally, perpetuate the myth that this is a black issue. Not only that but if the argument you give is an argument that the police force offer, it will only serve to reaffirm, in the minds of the black community, that the police are racist. Even if they are wrong about this.
 
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Buddha said:
I agree completely that there needs to be an honest and open discussion without the fear of either racism or unfair labelling of racism when there isn't any.

but I'm afraid that for far too many years the police DID discriminate against black people.
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What, all of them ? Some did, the vast majority did not.

Nobby`s coming from a background of real-life, close quarter, experience.

The issue of absent fathers has become a black issue for many black people - if you were to have an objective sit-down with a mothers group from inner London, it`s probable that they`d tell you as much.

I feel for the young kids who, through no fault of their own, go through young life and into adolescence without the steer and guiding influence of a father (I did). I feel for the women left to bring up children without the support of a partner/guiding figure. It IS an issue in the black community. It`s not racist, in any way, to talk about the issue in a constructive and caring way. On the other hand, it might be racist, to simply close an eye on the issue, fail to accept that it`s an issue and sweep it under the carpet as unimportant.

There`s a lot wrong with society and I agree with a lot of what you say, Buddha. But, I don`t share your particular take on this problem and where the origin to it lies.
 
LancsGordoRoad said:
What, all of them ? Some did, the vast majority did not.
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Fair enough. Thanks for correcting me.

Problem is the minority who were racist and acted in a racist manner were a sizeable minority and their actions damaged the reputation of the force. that might not be fair but that's the way it is. Just like us travellers get a bad rep because of the actions of the minority.

What is needed is constant reminders that the actions of a few are not representative of the whole.
 
When I was a kid , my mum used to tell me that people were all the same under their skin , that was (and still is)the narrative.
When facts or science says otherwise it becomes a very taboo subject, probably the most taboo subject there is.
 
Coming from a council house background - at least back in the fifties, sixties and seventies there was the same problem amongst white families. Many, many absentee fathers who normally had at least one other family on the go. Poor people without a stable family unit equals crime and violence, simple fact that sociologists have been documenting for ever.

We need to get together and work on this for the future but we also need some drastic measures to make it safe for these kids now otherwise its just an excuse to do nothing.
No use telling a grieving mother that its ok because we know the cause and the future might be brighter. You cannot bring back the dead child in the future.
 
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