Europe In Out Shake it all about | Page 126 | Vital Football

Europe In Out Shake it all about

Politicians have let everyone in this country down in the Brexit negotiations there was a good deal to be had it must be obvious to all that the E.U. wanted the cash but no they had to look to their own selfish self interest in all cases. If they had the slightest interest in the people of this country they would have come together for this negotiation. Yes I probably am being a bit naive. As for the current labour party these are same people I fought against as a shop steward during the winter of discontent that brought down Callaghans government they along with the far left union bosses sentenced us to years of tory rule. Now they have taken over the Labour party there may be 500.000 labour party members but it is a drop in the ocean compared to what is required to win enough seats to govern. And to be quite frank at the last election they had the same position on brexit as the tories . Well a certain Nick Clegg was roundly castigated for changing his policies after an election and I see no difference with this bunch no integrity and as untrustworthy as the bunch in power.
 
Merlin128777 said:
Politicians have let everyone in this country down in the Brexit negotiations there was a good deal to be had it must be obvious to all that the E.U. wanted the cash but no they had to look to their own selfish self interest in all cases. If they had the slightest interest in the people of this country they would have come together for this negotiation. Yes I probably am being a bit naive. As for the current labour party these are same people I fought against as a shop steward during the winter of discontent that brought down Callaghans government they along with the far left union bosses sentenced us to years of tory rule. Now they have taken over the Labour party there may be 500.000 labour party members but it is a drop in the ocean compared to what is required to win enough seats to govern. And to be quite frank at the last election they had the same position on brexit as the tories . Well a certain Nick Clegg was roundly castigated for changing his policies after an election and I see no difference with this bunch no integrity and as untrustworthy as the bunch in power.
Click to expand...

I do hate to say it, but we told you so. The Eu was never going to be kind, because it would encourage others to leave. As for our ability to negotiate a deal, and then new trade deals, go back to this thread before the vote. Many of us knew we didn't have the skills.
 
Merlin128777 said:
Politicians have let everyone in this country down in the Brexit negotiations there was a good deal to be had it must be obvious to all that the E.U. wanted the cash but no they had to look to their own selfish self interest in all cases. If they had the slightest interest in the people of this country they would have come together for this negotiation. Yes I probably am being a bit naive. As for the current labour party these are same people I fought against as a shop steward during the winter of discontent that brought down Callaghans government they along with the far left union bosses sentenced us to years of tory rule. Now they have taken over the Labour party there may be 500.000 labour party members but it is a drop in the ocean compared to what is required to win enough seats to govern. And to be quite frank at the last election they had the same position on brexit as the tories . Well a certain Nick Clegg was roundly castigated for changing his policies after an election and I see no difference with this bunch no integrity and as untrustworthy as the bunch in power.
Click to expand...

What was the good deal that was there to be had?
 
Bargaining from a position of a united front (both major parties) I believe a far better deal was possible. That is a large sum of money we are offering and the E.U. will need it, lets not pretend that Germany are going to make up the shortfall those days have gone. As stated earlier I did try to get an angle on where the E.U. were heading in future and to be frank did not like what I saw. If I had any regret politicians ineptitude apart it would be I was not aware of the effect on N.Ireland with the border problem. I would in all honesty change my vote for that reason and that reason alone, because if ever a community deserved years of peace its N. Ireland having seen the years of heartache they suffered.
 
Merlin128777 said:
Bargaining from a position of a united front (both major parties) I believe a far better deal was possible. That is a large sum of money we are offering and the E.U. will need it, lets not pretend that Germany are going to make up the shortfall those days have gone. As stated earlier I did try to get an angle on where the E.U. were heading in future and to be frank did not like what I saw. If I had any regret politicians ineptitude apart it would be I was not aware of the effect on N.Ireland with the border problem. I would in all honesty change my vote for that reason and that reason alone, because if ever a community deserved years of peace its N. Ireland having seen the years of heartache they suffered.
Click to expand...

I've never really understood the pro-Brexit ideals. It seemed to me that Britain was going to end up with a worse deal, either a hard Brexit or a Norway style deal.

What was the Brexit ideal that you were hoping for?
 
Ricardomeister2 said:
A very good summation of what leaving on WTO terms means (the specific bit on WTO starts at 5 minutes, but all worth a listen, imo)
Click to expand...

Interesting thanks for sharing. I think it puts across a pretty devastating outcome, which is factually probably not far off reality of what could happen, to be balanced there is a possibility that the deal works out better than expected but that’ll be what the October summit tells us. I think it’s important to also recognise and be balanced in that when something happens, a flood of cheap food killing UK business for example, that means consumers benefit. The pound may fall further which offsets the tariff charge to foreign customers so that is net neutral for an exporter.

Obviously the part that is most worrying is around the 16-17 min mark with the claim that everything stops. I do think there will be a degree of disruption, just out of the sheer nature of the break up. Lorries on the motorways, shipping access disrupted, fuel shortages, even food imports. I wonder if people panic buy and the shops are empty? Retailers only carry two weeks worth of stock.

The scale of disruption - no-one knows - I just it’s hope worst case it’s lorries parked on the M20 or roads around felixstowe but who knows? I’ve got a stag do around the end of March, I hope it’s not he weekend of the 29th March - what happens to brits stuck in a foreign country trying to get back into the UK on the 30th?

As he says and I think I’ve posted, I deal with negotiations (albeit not directly but the commercials behind it) at work and that takes months and months. Negotiation is a huge skill that many sales people aren’t actually that good at (some are). He makes the point about fast tracking post grads probably from a red brick uni being thrown into the trade deal negotiation team - I agree because you need a decade of practice on the front line, a text book won’t teach you handle the emotions, the frustration, when to concede, or know when to deal.

My gut feel is that there is too much to sort in 7-8 months that we can’t possibly just drop out, and we aren’t in a position to agree trade terms with the EU.

I work in food manufacturing and there are many more people working in food in this country than I realised, the raw material gets purchased in and many more UK paid people turn it into finished goods that I imagined. Ive just read an article about a company in Wigan that employ 1200 staff making 200 products. Anyone who’s been to wigan (who voted leave) could quickly tell you the risk of losing 1200 jobs there is a big proportion.

My gut feel to lose all agriculture in 2 years is extreme, I can’t see it, I think the losers will be the UK consumers who have to still eat whether in the UK or not, and to do so will pay 20-25p more for their tin of bakes beans either imported from abroad or raw materials imported from abroad and packed here. I did read a theory that suggested food manufacturers would do well initially based here, as tariffs price up finished goods abroad, but the bite would come later. Perhaps UK manufacturers will have to reduce scale and become more premium?

Wonder if the farmers who voted leaves he talks about would still vote leave? Quickly forgot the thousands of euros of subsidies from Brussels or the cheap Eastern European labour which powered the Range Rover didn’t they!
 
There is the same problem as before, with Boris talks: people are still stupid enough to believe him. They look at the container and do not explore the contents of the container.

Example: The Chequers deal won't work. Boris's will though, he says. Boris idea is that of the Canada model. The people who say ''ooh yes we think Boris is right'' have clearly forgotten two years ago and Brexit then.

The container (principle) may sound good (doesn't to me)however people are not exploring the contents of the container. It won't work. We aren't Canada.

Ofcourse Boris is yet again relying on a selection of the populations stupidity. Guess what? They are falling for it again cos that's what people do

It's all about another road to Downing street as far as I can see! JPA post above sums it up
 
BodyButter said:
I've never really understood the pro-Brexit ideals. It seemed to me that Britain was going to end up with a worse deal, either a hard Brexit or a Norway style deal.

What was the Brexit ideal that you were hoping for?
Click to expand...

I am slightly euro skeptic given the bailouts of poorly run countries and companies along with immigration issues seeming to move get more polarised depending on which part of the continent you are from, so if the Brexit case was built (following is completely hypothetical) with a constructive, sensible, considered and rational economic argument that meant we could constructively devolve from the EU (no bad divorce) over time reducing our legal alignment and contributions to just shared projects e.g. technology or defense, but maintained freedom of goods and services with minimal restrictions on the movement of EU people, then I would’ve voted for it.

The problem is the EU would never agree to that so my calculated vote was to remain!

If the most intelligent of economists, lawyers and business people were leading a campaign like the above I would vote for it. But the opportunity doesn’t exist in the short or medium term which is the rest of my working life.
 
A reporter on the news was talking Boris to the locals somewhere up north I think in relation to the Tory party conference, maybe Yorkshire, in a semi-rural, Brexit supporting town. The locals seemed to like Boris, they obviously associate him with the success of the leave vote and some backed him for PM - but even the ones that were sticking with May didn’t back him didn’t seem to discount him either.

Yet here is a guy who wanted to spend millions of taxpayers money on a bridge for flowers across the Thames, an airport in the channel, promised his constituents he’d lie in front of the bulldozers at Heathrow yet conveniently missed the vote on that one and has made a situation with a British lady held hostage in Iran worse because he managed to get one wording of a sentence wrong.

They’re just the ones I can recall of the top of my head, a google search will give enough ammunition to write a book on.

Maybe this democracy business isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be!
 
BodyButter said:
I've never really understood the pro-Brexit ideals. It seemed to me that Britain was going to end up with a worse deal, either a hard Brexit or a Norway style deal.

What was the Brexit ideal that you were hoping for?
Click to expand...

No one gets everything they want you would probably appreciate that bb If I had ideal it would be all the benefits without the rules yes it is not going to happen. So lets look at what I would realistically like to happen.


I would like to see a trade deal which would leave us free to trade with the rest of the world. The E.U. are notorious for taking years and years to agree deals.

I would like us to be free of the threat that if a country within the E.U. elects a daffy duck government who bankrupts there country that we do not suffer. e.g at the time of the vote the Italian banks were on a knife edge.

The E.U. at the time of the vote were seeking ever closer union I was fine originally voting for a trading block ( common market) I did not and do not wish to surrender our sovereignty to a council in the E.U.

We need to control our borders and yes reduce migration no fault of migrants that successive U.K. governments have failed to spend on the infrastructure required to cope with the influx. But make no mistake the numbers coming in do have a bad effect on those on low wages,not a problem I have personally thank goodness. But typical example A labourer earns lets say £9.50 an hour a few years ago a forklift truck driver would earn say £ 11.50 an hour for the added skill
these days everyone gets minimum wage it effects those at the harder end of the market, the result wages remain depressed for lower earners because employers have a large pool to choose from.

A doctors appointment 10 years ago 2 days today at my local surgery the automated system quotes 4 weeks.
We all know about waiting list for hospitals again government spending. For those with children they will tell you how difficult it is proving as the schools fill up and class sizes grow.

Housing the chances of young people getting on the housing ladder gets ever harder why ? quite simple numbers not enough houses for the numbers applying I could go on about successive governments but you get my drift.

The E.U. are set to go to a European Army I see this as a dangerous challenge to Russian borders (I blame some within the E.U. for pursuing the growth of the E.U. for what happened in the Ukraine It gave Putin the excuse he needed)

The growth of the far right in Europe if this continues would you really want to be governed by a council elected by these sort of people ?
they already have huge problems can see them getting worse.

You probably appreciate BB that this scratches the surface I took no notice of people like Boris,Farage,Osborne,Cameron but looked at the the whole project from the point of view of what sort of country my grandchildren would grow up in,and where I saw the E.U. heading in future.The whole thing could have been avoided with a bit of foresight by Europes leaders strange part is they will probably be forced down this path by their own voters anyway.

Yes I appreciated at the time that we would have a difficult 4-5 years after leaving. What I did not appreciate was the politicians not acting in the national interest and the problems with the N.Ireland border.
 
Merlin128777 said:
No one gets everything they want you would probably appreciate that bb If I had ideal it would be all the benefits without the rules yes it is not going to happen. So lets look at what I would realistically like to happen.


I would like to see a trade deal which would leave us free to trade with the rest of the world. The E.U. are notorious for taking years and years to agree deals.

I would like us to be free of the threat that if a country within the E.U. elects a daffy duck government who bankrupts there country that we do not suffer. e.g at the time of the vote the Italian banks were on a knife edge.

The E.U. at the time of the vote were seeking ever closer union I was fine originally voting for a trading block ( common market) I did not and do not wish to surrender our sovereignty to a council in the E.U.

We need to control our borders and yes reduce migration no fault of migrants that successive U.K. governments have failed to spend on the infrastructure required to cope with the influx. But make no mistake the numbers coming in do have a bad effect on those on low wages,not a problem I have personally thank goodness. But typical example A labourer earns lets say £9.50 an hour a few years ago a forklift truck driver would earn say £ 11.50 an hour for the added skill
these days everyone gets minimum wage it effects those at the harder end of the market, the result wages remain depressed for lower earners because employers have a large pool to choose from.

A doctors appointment 10 years ago 2 days today at my local surgery the automated system quotes 4 weeks.
We all know about waiting list for hospitals again government spending. For those with children they will tell you how difficult it is proving as the schools fill up and class sizes grow.

Housing the chances of young people getting on the housing ladder gets ever harder why ? quite simple numbers not enough houses for the numbers applying I could go on about successive governments but you get my drift.

The E.U. are set to go to a European Army I see this as a dangerous challenge to Russian borders (I blame some within the E.U. for pursuing the growth of the E.U. for what happened in the Ukraine It gave Putin the excuse he needed)

The growth of the far right in Europe if this continues would you really want to be governed by a council elected by these sort of people ?
they already have huge problems can see them getting worse.

You probably appreciate BB that this scratches the surface I took no notice of people like Boris,Farage,Osborne,Cameron but looked at the the whole project from the point of view of what sort of country my grandchildren would grow up in,and where I saw the E.U. heading in future.The whole thing could have been avoided with a bit of foresight by Europes leaders strange part is they will probably be forced down this path by their own voters anyway.

Yes I appreciated at the time that we would have a difficult 4-5 years after leaving. What I did not appreciate was the politicians not acting in the national interest and the problems with the N.Ireland border.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Merlin. It's always interesting to hear the other side of an argument. I think a lot of the points you raised were self inflicted injuries by the Tory austerity but I suppose if there were fewer people then there would be more to go around.

This is on a bit of a tangent but one of the issues that has come up again and again is immigration. The fact of the matter is that Europe has a big demographic problem (the UK included). As the population ages, there are fewer and fewer tax payers supporting more and more pensioners. One way to deal with that problem is to bring in more working people (immigration). The politicians won't talk about it but immigrants risk their lives to come to the EU because they can get jobs there. There should be a better system to manage immigration rather than forcing people to risk their lives dealing with people smugglers and creating another multi-billion dollar black market.
 
BodyButter said:
Thanks, Merlin. It's always interesting to hear the other side of an argument. I think a lot of the points you raised were self inflicted injuries by the Tory austerity but I suppose if there were fewer people then there would be more to go around.

This is on a bit of a tangent but one of the issues that has come up again and again is immigration. The fact of the matter is that Europe has a big demographic problem (the UK included). As the population ages, there are fewer and fewer tax payers supporting more and more pensioners. One way to deal with that problem is to bring in more working people (immigration). The politicians won't talk about it but immigrants risk their lives to come to the EU because they can get jobs there. There should be a better system to manage immigration rather than forcing people to risk their lives dealing with people smugglers and creating another multi-billion dollar black market.
Click to expand...


I should probably have made it clear BB but my parents were immigrants
so it is not a case of colour,race or creed with me more about numbers
to available resources. Having said that I am sure the original inhabitants do feel that their communities are in some cases being swamped and disappearing under sheet weight of numbers so while I might not have this problem others may. No problem with the people who have immigrated already I feel the are a boon to the economy and as you rightly point out are needed to replace an ageing population
the problem is with logistics not the people themselves.
 
Merlin128777 said:
I should probably have made it clear BB but my parents were immigrants
so it is not a case of colour,race or creed with me more about numbers
to available resources. Having said that I am sure the original inhabitants do feel that their communities are in some cases being swamped and disappearing under sheet weight of numbers so while I might not have this problem others may. No problem with the people who have immigrated already I feel the are a boon to the economy and as you rightly point out are needed to replace an ageing population
the problem is with logistics not the people themselves.
Click to expand...

That's part of the problem with any debate about immigration, isn't it? If you are against it, you are portrayed as a racist. It makes any rational debate impossible. It also means that politicians can't actually state the current policy on immigration for fear of losing votes. They have to pretend to be tough on immigration while holding the door open for immigrants so that the social welfare system doesn't collapse.

Your criticisms of the EU are valid too. It's by no means a perfect organisation but I fear that Britain is going to rip itself apart with Brexit and England will be left a very diminished state after it.
 
BodyButter said:
I see Boris has proposed a £15bn bridge between Northern Ireland and Scotland. He really doesn't understand the problem, does he? It's a shame, I quite liked him on TV but he has revealed himself to be a total fool in politics.
Click to expand...

I can only come to the conclusion everything he says is a complete publicity stunt and if his career in politics does end up in the gutter he’s hedging his fame on getting a spot on celebrity get me outta here.

Absolute :clown:. So much of a clown I don’t believe he genuinely believes a word of what he says either. Even his own dad didn’t vote for his Brexit lie.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.