England v Belgium | Page 4 | Vital Football

England v Belgium

I just find it odd that people think a team relying on bowen, maguire, chilwell, gallagher, grealish, phillips, shaw, wilson, dunk, and so on, should be winning world cups and euros and everything on the way, and anything less is failure.

Because they play in the best league in the world. Whilst I agree a lot of people overrate our players, people are equally quick to overrate other countries players. Gonzalo Montiel scored the World Cup winning penalty for Argentina - is he better than the list you reeled off above?
 
Well he should be with the players he has at his disposal! He has no tactical acumen and is totally uninspiring. He got the job on the basis of what he did with the under 21s not what he did at club level. As for the talent imo it’s almost second to none with a few weaknesses but unless you were Brazil 1970 that’s been what all winning teams have. A few areas of weakness. We need some sort of coaching academy to bring better coaches along for the future. In the meantime other than Eddie Howe it’s hard to see who would be Southgates successor which is depressing!
IMO Eddie Howe has exactly what we've been missing under Southgate. He can get the best out of his players, and isn't afraid to change things up if they aren't working. He's done this over and over at Bournemouth and Newcastle. He's also very tactically astute.

I would massively disagree with pope's assertion that he doesn't have anything Southgate doesn't have. They are completely different managers.

More than anything I think we just need a change. We aren't going to improve any more in my opinion, and we should be aiming for a tournament win given our results under Southgate.

That's not to say I think our squad should always be winning tournaments - I don't think there's enough of a difference between the top international teams to ever say that one team should be winning any given tournament, but it should definitely be what we're aiming for, because we are one of the top teams, and I can't see us winning anything under Southgate at this point.
 
That was a bit tongue in cheek. We do have grea5 players other than defence I’m afraid which with the manager ultimately will be our Achilles heel. If we had 2 outstanding defenders alongside a decent manager we would win tournaments
TBF, our first choice back line was missing against belgium.

Fingers crossed Maguire is unscathed the time June rolls around.

So, I'd suggest Ten Haag wrap big H in cotton wool, and save him for the Mbappe's, Griezemans, Gakpos and the Che Adams' of this world.
 
But that's the crux of it isn't it?

"Southgate absolutely has to go".

Who to replace him?

"Erm... Gary O'Neil has done quite well to keep Bournemouth and Wolves clear of relegation".

It's absolutely dire.

There probably isn't anyone English who is actually better than Southgate in any measurable way beyond having a different face. And that is not defending Southgate.

There are no English master tacticians. There are no English managers with experience managing a team of huge stars. No English manager with experience of having top level players and getting them to perform- other than Southgate.

We have English managers with experience, in the premier league, of getting good results from limited resources in a league full of bigger and richer teams.

That isn't what we are after is it?

I mean, people on here seem to reckon we already have the best team, or close to it.

Who was the last English manager to win the premier league title? Has an English manager ever won the Premier League since 1992?

Who was the last English manager to win something, full stop?
David Moyes.

Granted, he has a funny accent and is getting on a tad, but i'd have his no nonsense galactic block dictating tempo to our attacking darlings.
 
IMO Eddie Howe has exactly what we've been missing under Southgate. He can get the best out of his players, and isn't afraid to change things up if they aren't working. He's done this over and over at Bournemouth and Newcastle. He's also very tactically astute.

I would massively disagree with pope's assertion that he doesn't have anything Southgate doesn't have. They are completely different managers.

More than anything I think we just need a change. We aren't going to improve any more in my opinion, and we should be aiming for a tournament win given our results under Southgate.

That's not to say I think our squad should always be winning tournaments - I don't think there's enough of a difference between the top international teams to ever say that one team should be winning any given tournament, but it should definitely be what we're aiming for, because we are one of the top teams, and I can't see us winning anything under Southgate at this point.
This is very true.

I was just saying it to the Marquis last night (soiree at his man "cave" - its really a man hole) that when arriving at an International Tournament Finals, any team can beat any other.

Heck, we could lose to the Scotlands of this world, and it wouldnt surprise me.

All teams have one player that can turn a game.
The Marquis has butlers who do similar: except in the act of fluffing a gentleman.
 
IMO Eddie Howe has exactly what we've been missing under Southgate. He can get the best out of his players, and isn't afraid to change things up if they aren't working. He's done this over and over at Bournemouth and Newcastle. He's also very tactically astute.

I would massively disagree with pope's assertion that he doesn't have anything Southgate doesn't have. They are completely different managers.

More than anything I think we just need a change. We aren't going to improve any more in my opinion, and we should be aiming for a tournament win given our results under Southgate.

That's not to say I think our squad should always be winning tournaments - I don't think there's enough of a difference between the top international teams to ever say that one team should be winning any given tournament, but it should definitely be what we're aiming for, because we are one of the top teams, and I can't see us winning anything under Southgate at this point.
But Eddie Howe isn't getting the best out of the players he has.

We've been the better team in both games against Newcastle this season. The referee gave them one win.

He is under pressure right now.

His CV involves winning promotion with Bournemouth, relegation with Bournemouth and one top four place with Newcastle after strong investment.

We aren't looking for "get the best from what we've got". We are not Wales or Scotland.

We are looking to get the best from the best, apparently. Howe doesn't have any experience of that and I don't see much in his CV that suggests he'll step up to it. No major club has even looked at him and rightly so.

Getting the best out of limited players, using tactics and maximising what you have to minimise the opposition is one aspect of the game.

Getting the best players to perform at their best against those tactics, getting them to outsmart disciplined opponents, operate in no space and use their talents in the right way at the right time- while keeping their respect- that is totally different.

You reckon we have a world class squad. There is absolutely no way Eddie Howe is a world class manager. You would need Pep or Klopp for something like that, but the problem is, England should not be taking foreign managers.

The only thing Howe has got going for him is that he isn't Gareth Southgate, which is enough for many to massively inflate his credentials. I understand that, people are sick of Southgate. But there isn't a single argument you can make against Southgate that isn't applicable to Howe or any of the other English candidates. That's the problem
 
But that's the crux of it isn't it?

"Southgate absolutely has to go".

Who to replace him?

"Erm... Gary O'Neil has done quite well to keep Bournemouth and Wolves clear of relegation".

It's absolutely dire.

There probably isn't anyone English who is actually better than Southgate in any measurable way beyond having a different face. And that is not defending Southgate.

There are no English master tacticians. There are no English managers with experience managing a team of huge stars. No English manager with experience of having top level players and getting them to perform- other than Southgate.

We have English managers with experience, in the premier league, of getting good results from limited resources in a league full of bigger and richer teams.

That isn't what we are after is it?

I mean, people on here seem to reckon we already have the best team, or close to it.

Who was the last English manager to win the premier league title? Has an English manager ever won the Premier League since 1992?

Who was the last English manager to win something, full stop?
I totally agree. Our keeper is no more than decent, our centre backs are largely bang average and we don’t seem to have a left back.

We have Rice, Bellingham, Foden, Saka and Kane who you could make arguments for being in the world class category but beyond that?

Southgate got a team with Pickford, Maguire, Henderson and/or Phillips to a semi final and a final. Let that sink in…

He is as good as anyone else, better than most. The argument that he is cautious ignores just how bad our defence is and how prone it is to collapse.

I like O’Neill. I think he, if anyone, has the ability to become a top manager but he is two years into that journey. Southgate will be gone after this tournament and I wouldn’t be surprised if we go backwards when he leaves.
 
I totally agree. Our keeper is no more than decent, our centre backs are largely bang average and we don’t seem to have a left back.

We have Rice, Bellingham, Foden, Saka and Kane who you could make arguments for being in the world class category but beyond that?

Southgate got a team with Pickford, Maguire, Henderson and/or Phillips to a semi final and a final. Let that sink in…

He is as good as anyone else, better than most. The argument that he is cautious ignores just how bad our defence is and how prone it is to collapse.

I like O’Neill. I think he, if anyone, has the ability to become a top manager but he is two years into that journey. Southgate will be gone after this tournament and I wouldn’t be surprised if we go backwards when he leaves.

although I agree, I think Southgate is an international manager. not sure he could replicate his success in the league.
 
Because they play in the best league in the world. Whilst I agree a lot of people overrate our players, people are equally quick to overrate other countries players. Gonzalo Montiel scored the World Cup winning penalty for Argentina - is he better than the list you reeled off above?
IMO he's not as good as Kyle Walker but not any worse than anyone else in England's defence bar Stones.

He's surely better than the performances Forest have been getting out of him.
 
IMO he's not as good as Kyle Walker but not any worse than anyone else in England's defence bar Stones.

He's surely better than the performances Forest have been getting out of him.

What makes you think he is better than the performances we gave been seeing?

England on the whole have better players than Argentina.
 
I actually thought the forward players looked pretty decent, there was a degree of control of the ball around their box in tight spaces, one touch stuff that I haven't seen England players be able to do for some time.

Foden and Bellingham, and Mainoo in particular need to play together as much as possible. And as much as it pains me Toney is a good option for us without Kane.
 
I actually thought the forward players looked pretty decent, there was a degree of control of the ball around their box in tight spaces, one touch stuff that I haven't seen England players be able to do for some time.

Foden and Bellingham, and Mainoo in particular need to play together as much as possible. And as much as it pains me Toney is a good option for us without Kane.

largely agree although there was a significant part of me wanted selz to save it.
 
IMO he's not as good as Kyle Walker but not any worse than anyone else in England's defence bar Stones.

He's surely better than the performances Forest have been getting out of him.

He can’t get in our team and we’re sat in the relegation zone, so I’d suggest he’s worse than all of them. Regardless, my point is that other than maybe France, nobody has a roster of world class players that are better than ours. Belgium started with 2 of our players last night and are ranked 4th. We need to get out this habit of blaming the squad constantly and look at the management.
 
I understand that, people are sick of Southgate. But there isn't a single argument you can make against Southgate that isn't applicable to Howe or any of the other English candidates.
Southgate is unable to change a game (positively) with substitutes and in game tactical decisions. Howe is.
Southgate's tactics don't play to our squad's strengths, Howe's do.

2 arguments.
 
Southgate is unable to change a game (positively) with substitutes and in game tactical decisions. Howe is.
Southgate's tactics don't play to our squad's strengths, Howe's do.

2 arguments.
I think you are being phenomenally kind to Howe and i'm not sure why. But it's your opinion, cant be proved or disproved internationally one way or another, so might as well agree to disagree
 
He can’t get in our team and we’re sat in the relegation zone, so I’d suggest he’s worse than all of them. Regardless, my point is that other than maybe France, nobody has a roster of world class players that are better than ours. Belgium started with 2 of our players last night and are ranked 4th. We need to get out this habit of blaming the squad constantly and look at the management.
All very reasonable. My point isn't that I'm blaming the squad, but there is a lot of space between that and saying we should be winning competitions. We've got a squad that is more than capable of competing, but it isn't a shoe-in for a trophy.

Semi-final, Final, Quarter-final (where we were unlucky to go out against France who themselves were unlucky to lose in the final on penalties). I'd say our results aren't a massive underperformance based on our squad, which is what a lot of people are saying, despite having several weak links.
Apparently we have the fourth best recent record against the top ten. Just behind Belgium, a bit behind Spain, and quite a long way behind France.


[Also, Mangala was underrated here.]