#COVID19

[Strett]

We could have done what we did while remaining members of the EU.
Nothing we did was contingent on brexit.
We could have joined or not joined the procurement scheme.
We chose not to. That has worked out well so far.
We would probably have been more likely to choose to participate in the scheme if we had remained in the EU after the referendum. The result of that choice could be said to be a result of brexit. The reasons for the decision were almost certainly not correctly founded. It wasn't that they thought they could do it better or faster, the just didn't want the brexit baggage or have anything to do with the EU. I would have preferred the decision to be based not on ideology but on public health grounds - i.e. what was best for the health of the nation. I think that was very much secondary but we will never truly know unless we believe the word of Michael Gove and I'm reluctant to do that even when he is supporting my point of view. He said that the reason we weren't joining was because of oversight by the ECJ - clearly something he couldn't accept. e.g. he said we didn't join because we weren't in the EU (which was irrelevant) and also "participation in the European Medicines Agency would involve, certainly at the moment, the acceptance of the European Court of Justice’s oversight, and that is not something the British people voted to do."



Brexit may well cost more lives and livelihoods than the virus due to economic decline and further austerity. We shall have to wait and see but it hasn't started well.


I hope that is a satisfactory answer? I have said exactly this before; there are no revelations.

The rest of your posts today are a bit embarrassing tbh.

Why are they embarrassing? Because you dislike me showing the EU up as being galactically incompetent, or embarrassed that you champion them and dislike, though acknowledge through gritted teeth, that are not the messiahs you've been hoodwinked to believe they are?

What economic downturn? There may be one because of Covid, and unfortunately the EU states will suffer the most because of their incompetence in the vaccines.; but there most definitely not be one because of Brexit.

In fact the UK economy is set to outstrip Europe over next 15 years as new global ranking forecast that GDP in Britain will be 23% more than in France by 2035, unless they Frexit, that is.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

Why are they embarrassing? Because you dislike me showing the EU up as being galactically incompetent, or embarrassed that you champion them and dislike, though acknowledge through gritted teeth, that are not the messiahs you've been hoodwinked to believe they are?

What economic downturn? There may be one because of Covid, and unfortunately the EU states will suffer the most because of their incompetence in the vaccines.; but there most definitely not be one because of Brexit.

In fact the UK economy is set to outstrip Europe over next 15 years as new global ranking forecast that GDP in Britain will be 23% more than in France by 2035, unless they Frexit, that is.

They're embarrassing because ultimately this is about people dying and as numerous posters have pointed out you take great joy in that fact in order to score political points.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

Why are they embarrassing? Because you dislike me showing the EU up as being galactically incompetent, or embarrassed that you champion them and dislike, though acknowledge through gritted teeth, that are not the messiahs you've been hoodwinked to believe they are?

What economic downturn? There may be one because of Covid, and unfortunately the EU states will suffer the most because of their incompetence in the vaccines.; but there most definitely not be one because of Brexit.

In fact the UK economy is set to outstrip Europe over next 15 years as new global ranking forecast that GDP in Britain will be 23% more than in France by 2035, unless they Frexit, that is.

Also nonsense to suggest there won't be an economic downturn because of Brexit. Show me any analysis that suggests otherwise. Your figures are also worthless unless you have a comparison figure for if we had remained.

 

[Strett]

They're embarrassing because ultimately this is about people dying and as numerous posters have pointed out you take great joy in that fact in order to score political points.

No you are misreading as you have many times, the most recently with @Pope John XXIII

 

[Strett]

Also nonsense to suggest there won't be an economic downturn because of Brexit. Show me any analysis that suggests otherwise. Your figures are also worthless unless you have a comparison figure for if we had remained.

I haven't done any analysis, but the CEBR, whose job it is to do this, has and the report after the Brexit deal was signed states...

A new ranking shows the UK remaining the world’s 5th biggest economy next year. From 2025 it slips one place, but still performs better than many peer western economies.

The UK’s economy will be 23pc larger than that of France by 2035, the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR) predicts.

Historically, French output was higher than the UK’s for much of the postwar period, until the situation was reversed in recent decades.

“The UK economy continues to be one of the better performers in Europe despite Brexit,” a spokesperson for the CEBR said.

“It is forecast to be overtaken only by India during the period to 2035.”

For context, the CEBR have been strong advocated of remaining in the EU for decades.

 

[radfordinlondon]

I haven't done any analysis, but the CEBR, whose job it is to do this, has and the report after the Brexit deal was signed states...

A new ranking shows the UK remaining the world’s 5th biggest economy next year. From 2025 it slips one place, but still performs better than many peer western economies.

The UK’s economy will be 23pc larger than that of France by 2035, the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR) predicts.

Historically, French output was higher than the UK’s for much of the postwar period, until the situation was reversed in recent decades.

“The UK economy continues to be one of the better performers in Europe despite Brexit,” a spokesperson for the CEBR said.

“It is forecast to be overtaken only by India during the period to 2035.”

For context, the CEBR have been strong advocated of remaining in the EU for decades.

Would imagine we could have done even better staying in

 

[Strett]

Would imagine we could have done even better staying in

It's what the Tories were championing back in 2015-16

 

[Strett]

A timeline of Neolithic incompetence from the EU...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-eu-astrazeneca-row-a-complete-timeline

Friday 22 January: AstraZeneca tells Brussels there will be a 60 per cent shortfall due to production issues in its European supply chain which leaves the EU expecting deliveries of 31 million doses by the end of March instead of the agreed 80 million.

Monday 25 January: Handelsblatt newspaper quotes German government sources claiming that the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is only 8 per cent effective among the over-65s — a claim which was allegedly based on the misreading of an Excel spreadsheet. The German health ministry publicly rebuts the claims along with AstraZeneca and Oxford University.

Thursday 28 January: German health authorities say the vaccine should not be administered to over-65s owing to a lack of data for this age group. Austria, France, Greece, Sweden, Denmark, Poland and the Netherlands subsequently do the same while Belgium and Spain limit it to under 55s and Italy initially limits the jab to under 55s before raising it to adults up to 65 a month later.

That same day the EU orders officials to inspect AstraZeneca’s facility in Belgium to confirm supply issues after a row over whether the trade bloc is receiving its fair share from the company’s two UK plants. AstraZeneca points out that the UK’s contract was signed three months before Brussels and it confirmed that vaccines made in the UK would be supplied there first.

Friday 29 January: The European Medicines Agency approves use of the jab for all adults over the age of 18 – a month after the UK. Hours later French president Emmanuel Macron claims the jab is ‘quasi-ineffective’ and the European Commission releases a copy of its contract with AstraZeneca.

Brussels subsequently makes moves to trigger Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol to prevent vaccines entering the UK – a move that enrages both republicans and unionists as it would have introduced checks at the Irish border. After a fierce backlash, the commission drops this bid. Following talks with Boris Johnson, Commission President Ursula von der Leyen says that ‘there should not be restrictions on the export of vaccines by companies where they are fulfilling contractual responsibilities’.

Saturday 30 January: The European Commission introduces an export authorisation requirement for vaccines produced in the EU and being exported elsewhere.

Friday 26 February: Amid concerns about the slow take up of the vaccine, German Chancellor Angela Merkel is asked in a newspaper interview whether she would volunteer to be administered with the vaccine. Merkel replies: ‘I am 66 years old and I do not belong to the recommended group for AstraZeneca.’

Monday 1 March: The French government performs a U-turn after health minister Olivier Veron says that the vaccine will now be made available to those between 65-75 with serious health risks. It comes after a new study from Public Health England showed a single dose of the Oxford vaccine offers dramatic protection against hospital admission and severe disease in older people. Jonathan Van-Tam says the data ‘vindicated’ the UK’s decision to roll it out to older age groups.

Thursday 4 March: Italy and the European Commission block a shipment of AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine destined for Australia under the law introduced 30 January. Reasons cited by Italy for blocking the shipment include that Australia is considered ‘not vulnerable’ because of a low number of COVID cases; a shortage of vaccines both in Italy and the EU and the high number of doses included in the shipment. The vaccines are intended to be redistributed across the rest of the EU.

Tuesday 9 March: Charles Michel, the President of the European Council, accuses Britain of banning the export of COVID-19 vaccines including AstraZeneca stating in an online newsletter: ‘The United Kingdom and the United States have imposed an outright ban on the export of vaccines or vaccine components produced on their territory.’ Boris Johnson denies this charge at PMQs.

Wednesday 10 March: Following reports in Austria that a 49-year-old nurse died of ‘severe blood coagulation problems’ days after receiving an anti-Covid shot, the European Medicines Agency says a preliminary probe showed that the batch of AstraZeneca vaccines used was likely not to blame.

Thursday 11 March: Denmark become the first country to suspend all AstraZeneca vaccinations for two weeks after a 60-year-old woman who had been vaccinated formed a blood clot and died. Austria and Norway follow suit. Other countries, including France, say they will continue to administer the vaccine, citing the EU drug regulator's ruling that the AstraZeneca jab was still safe to use. French Health Minister Olivier Véran says he has consulted with the French medicines agency, which believes there is ‘no need’ to suspend vaccinations.

Friday 12 March: The International Society on Thrombosis and Haemostasis, representing medical experts around the world, says that ‘the small number of reported thrombotic events relative to the millions of administered Covid-19 vaccinations does not suggest a direct link.’

Monday 15 March: Germany, Italy, and France all temporarily suspend use of the vaccine developed by AstraZeneca and Oxford University over blood clot fears. The European Medicines Agency releases a statement which notes that the number of such events in vaccinated people ‘seems not to be higher than that seen in the general population.’

Tuesday 16 March: Sweden becomes the latest European country to pause use of the vaccine as World Health Organization safety experts prepare to meet to discuss the jab. British experts are reported as being 'baffled' over the delay with Professor Adam Finn, a member of the WHO's working group on Covid vaccines, warning that stopping rollout in this way is 'highly undesirable' and risks undermine confidence in the vaccine, costing lives in the long-term.


French Europe Minister Clement Beaune appeared on Radio Classique this morning and raised the prospect of the EU actually suing the company over breach of contract. Citing lower-than-expected deliveries, he claimed: 'Europe is not going to be some sort of cuddly 'care bear' that hands over its money and then expects nothing in return.'

Very big super LOLZ!* Slagging it off then suing!!!

*To be crystal clear for CP, I'm laughing at the brass neck of the Frenchy, not laughing at people dying because of bureaucratic incompetence.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

I haven't done any analysis, but the CEBR, whose job it is to do this, has and the report after the Brexit deal was signed states...

A new ranking shows the UK remaining the world’s 5th biggest economy next year. From 2025 it slips one place, but still performs better than many peer western economies.

The UK’s economy will be 23pc larger than that of France by 2035, the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR) predicts.

Historically, French output was higher than the UK’s for much of the postwar period, until the situation was reversed in recent decades.

“The UK economy continues to be one of the better performers in Europe despite Brexit,” a spokesperson for the CEBR said.

“It is forecast to be overtaken only by India during the period to 2035.”

For context, the CEBR have been strong advocated of remaining in the EU for decades.

That's not a comparison of our performance if we had remained lol honestly dude.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

A timeline of Neolithic incompetence from the EU...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-eu-astrazeneca-row-a-complete-timeline

Friday 22 January: AstraZeneca tells Brussels there will be a 60 per cent shortfall due to production issues in its European supply chain which leaves the EU expecting deliveries of 31 million doses by the end of March instead of the agreed 80 million.

Monday 25 January: Handelsblatt newspaper quotes German government sources claiming that the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is only 8 per cent effective among the over-65s — a claim which was allegedly based on the misreading of an Excel spreadsheet. The German health ministry publicly rebuts the claims along with AstraZeneca and Oxford University.

Thursday 28 January: German health authorities say the vaccine should not be administered to over-65s owing to a lack of data for this age group. Austria, France, Greece, Sweden, Denmark, Poland and the Netherlands subsequently do the same while Belgium and Spain limit it to under 55s and Italy initially limits the jab to under 55s before raising it to adults up to 65 a month later.

That same day the EU orders officials to inspect AstraZeneca’s facility in Belgium to confirm supply issues after a row over whether the trade bloc is receiving its fair share from the company’s two UK plants. AstraZeneca points out that the UK’s contract was signed three months before Brussels and it confirmed that vaccines made in the UK would be supplied there first.

Friday 29 January: The European Medicines Agency approves use of the jab for all adults over the age of 18 – a month after the UK. Hours later French president Emmanuel Macron claims the jab is ‘quasi-ineffective’ and the European Commission releases a copy of its contract with AstraZeneca.

Brussels subsequently makes moves to trigger Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol to prevent vaccines entering the UK – a move that enrages both republicans and unionists as it would have introduced checks at the Irish border. After a fierce backlash, the commission drops this bid. Following talks with Boris Johnson, Commission President Ursula von der Leyen says that ‘there should not be restrictions on the export of vaccines by companies where they are fulfilling contractual responsibilities’.

Saturday 30 January: The European Commission introduces an export authorisation requirement for vaccines produced in the EU and being exported elsewhere.

Friday 26 February: Amid concerns about the slow take up of the vaccine, German Chancellor Angela Merkel is asked in a newspaper interview whether she would volunteer to be administered with the vaccine. Merkel replies: ‘I am 66 years old and I do not belong to the recommended group for AstraZeneca.’

Monday 1 March: The French government performs a U-turn after health minister Olivier Veron says that the vaccine will now be made available to those between 65-75 with serious health risks. It comes after a new study from Public Health England showed a single dose of the Oxford vaccine offers dramatic protection against hospital admission and severe disease in older people. Jonathan Van-Tam says the data ‘vindicated’ the UK’s decision to roll it out to older age groups.

Thursday 4 March: Italy and the European Commission block a shipment of AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine destined for Australia under the law introduced 30 January. Reasons cited by Italy for blocking the shipment include that Australia is considered ‘not vulnerable’ because of a low number of COVID cases; a shortage of vaccines both in Italy and the EU and the high number of doses included in the shipment. The vaccines are intended to be redistributed across the rest of the EU.

Tuesday 9 March: Charles Michel, the President of the European Council, accuses Britain of banning the export of COVID-19 vaccines including AstraZeneca stating in an online newsletter: ‘The United Kingdom and the United States have imposed an outright ban on the export of vaccines or vaccine components produced on their territory.’ Boris Johnson denies this charge at PMQs.

Wednesday 10 March: Following reports in Austria that a 49-year-old nurse died of ‘severe blood coagulation problems’ days after receiving an anti-Covid shot, the European Medicines Agency says a preliminary probe showed that the batch of AstraZeneca vaccines used was likely not to blame.

Thursday 11 March: Denmark become the first country to suspend all AstraZeneca vaccinations for two weeks after a 60-year-old woman who had been vaccinated formed a blood clot and died. Austria and Norway follow suit. Other countries, including France, say they will continue to administer the vaccine, citing the EU drug regulator's ruling that the AstraZeneca jab was still safe to use. French Health Minister Olivier Véran says he has consulted with the French medicines agency, which believes there is ‘no need’ to suspend vaccinations.

Friday 12 March: The International Society on Thrombosis and Haemostasis, representing medical experts around the world, says that ‘the small number of reported thrombotic events relative to the millions of administered Covid-19 vaccinations does not suggest a direct link.’

Monday 15 March: Germany, Italy, and France all temporarily suspend use of the vaccine developed by AstraZeneca and Oxford University over blood clot fears. The European Medicines Agency releases a statement which notes that the number of such events in vaccinated people ‘seems not to be higher than that seen in the general population.’

Tuesday 16 March: Sweden becomes the latest European country to pause use of the vaccine as World Health Organization safety experts prepare to meet to discuss the jab. British experts are reported as being 'baffled' over the delay with Professor Adam Finn, a member of the WHO's working group on Covid vaccines, warning that stopping rollout in this way is 'highly undesirable' and risks undermine confidence in the vaccine, costing lives in the long-term.


French Europe Minister Clement Beaune appeared on Radio Classique this morning and raised the prospect of the EU actually suing the company over breach of contract. Citing lower-than-expected deliveries, he claimed: 'Europe is not going to be some sort of cuddly 'care bear' that hands over its money and then expects nothing in return.'

Very big super LOLZ!* Slagging it off then suing!!!

*To be crystal clear for CP, I'm laughing at the brass neck of the Frenchy, not laughing at people dying because of bureaucratic incompetence.

Mmhmm

 

[Strett]

That's not a comparison of our performance if we had remained lol honestly dude.

You asked me for an analysis that shows there will be no economic downturn, not a comparison with if we had remained. lol, honestly dude.

 

[Woanz]

Why are they embarrassing? Because you dislike me showing the EU up as being galactically incompetent, or embarrassed that you champion them and dislike, though acknowledge through gritted teeth, that are not the messiahs you've been hoodwinked to believe they are?

What economic downturn? There may be one because of Covid, and unfortunately the EU states will suffer the most because of their incompetence in the vaccines.; but there most definitely not be one because of Brexit.

In fact the UK economy is set to outstrip Europe over next 15 years as new global ranking forecast that GDP in Britain will be 23% more than in France by 2035, unless they Frexit, that is.

incompetent? Really and just how much has the butcher wasted giving to his mates? 10 Mars rovers isn’t?

 

[Strett]

incompetent? Really and just how much has the butcher wasted giving to his mates? 10 Mars rovers isn’t?

Ooh look, a squirrel.

10/10 for whataboutery, sir.

 

[paz1967]

In fact the UK economy is set to outstrip Europe over next 15 years as new global ranking forecast that GDP in Britain will be 23% more than in France by 2035, unless they Frexit, that is.

This is where you/we are consistently hoodwinked. GDP has nothing to do with public spending does it?

Its how much trade our big corporates have done, the conglomorates, pesticide makers, pharmaceuticals, the energy companies. If these companies don't pay a share of tax big enough for the 60 millon working class folk then there isnt enough money and publc services get cut.
Better measurements would be things like taxes recieved and how much the majority working wage was and how much public spending there is.

As for covid causing chaos. of course it has and couldnt be planned for.. But we have wasted billions, genuinelly wasted it yet we will be the ones paying it back from the peanuts we exist on already. And things like Brexit have just happened, things like the 350million a week for the NHS are a seperate issue, that money is apparently still forthcoming so why is is not there?

 

[Basha73]

Ooh look, squirrel.

Isn’t that your usual tactic?

 

[paz1967]

They are all incompetent, on both sides, lets not be naive. The people in charge here are the same bumbling toffs that get to the top over there. There is no difference in people.
The ONLY real difference is that they belive in the power of 'together' and Tories belive in the power of the individual. That isnt just an EU thing, it's exactly what Conservatives represent, individuals over sociiety as a whole.

 

[radfordinlondon]

Ooh look, a squirrel.

10/10 for whataboutery, sir.

Hope he takes that as a compliment from the whatabout king. Said it b4, you seem obsessed with an organisation you were desperate to leave. Now we have left all you bang on about is how shit they are. I agree with itto, they have made mistakes and will no doubt roll back. Not too much more to say, more interested in what happens here.

Be great if sovereignty didnt equal money to your mates and actually delivered something.

 

[paz1967]

Say that in a psychiatric ward.

You just proved my point somewhat

 

[in_the_top_one]

The EU have you good 'n proper, it's a sort of low resolution Stockholm Syndrome.

Do you really believe that if the AZ vaccine was French, that Macron et al would be behaving like this? Of course not.

Who are "et al" in this context? DR Congo? Thailand? Malaysia? Norway?

They should be being servile and apologetic, not aggressive and defensive.

Extraordinary.

Thousands more people will have died across the bloc by then, but when your raison d'être is junkets and 2 hour lunches, then that seems fast.

Three quarters of countries in Europe have rising numbers of infections this week. The EU are fiddling while Rome burns.

The audacity of it! I don't want to resort to whataboutism but when you launch an attack like that then maybe consider setting it into an appropriate context?

They chuffed up the procurement and they are now going through a group ass-saving game of soggy biscuit

Wonderful work.

The only handbrake on the idiots who thought the Euro was a good idea has been removed.

The Euro? Irrelevant.

To start, the EU as of today, has vaccinated 10% of their population, the UK had done that by January 23rd.

You know this is not a fair comparison. They started later (due to the EMA, not particularly because of stocks) and they have fully vaccinated a greater proportion than us. Turns out that being fully vaccinated is quite important.

“The UK economy continues to be one of the better performers in Europe despite Brexit,” a spokesperson for the CEBR said.

Meaning, quite clearly, that we would have been better off staying in. So it is a downturn in the growth forecast.

 

[paz1967]

So will you also say that leaving the EU has enabled us to do far better than the EU in vaccinations? So, ergo because of Brexit lives are being saved (not the government, as we know their shortcomings, but Brexit)?

If we had joined, the UK, unlike all EU member states, would not have been able to take part in the governance of the scheme, including the steering group or the negotiating team.

Britain would have no say in what vaccines to procure, at what price or in what quantity, and for what delivery schedule. There would be no side-deals possible, all because of Brexit.

So, it is only logical then that we didn't join because of Brexit and, ergo it has been a sucess because of Brexit.

But that totally depends on ones definition of success obviously. If your definition of sucess is equal and proportionate update of vacinnes by every single country in the world all at a profit free deal then it isnt a success is it, its an abject failure. One of power grabs and cronyism. Its a bit like watching the movie Wall Street and thinking this is great for everybody.