#COVID19 | Page 747 | Vital Football

#COVID19

Lienking said:
You would say that because of your views on it . After the referendum there should have been no need for further action, just wait for our united government to implement the democratic decision. The "tribal" element was introduced because hundreds of MPs were elected to implement the decision (such as my own MP Anna Soubry) who then did everything possible to try and stop it. May and Hammond both voted Remain and went about things in that mindset. This led to things like the Brexit Party having to be formed.

The main problem now is the fact that people don't seem to accept democratic votes. In the 2017 election Corbyn did far better than expected, but many of the Labour voters seemed to think they had won, including Diane Abbott who stated they had in one of her many failed interviews.

The referendum result wasn't accepted, and now of course we have the OTT Americans who believe that Trump was swindled. In a world where we are trying to show dictatorships the benefits of democracy, we are all making a real hash of it at the moment.
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None of that is true LK.

The overwhelming majority of MPs, including Soubry, did impement the decision by voting for article 50.

They then had every right to take part in the decisions as to what the final relationship would look like, as did the 16.1 million remain voters

The tragedy in this was the ERG and Mrs May. She immediately took a hard Brexit stance, which encouraged the ERG. The hard brexiteers steered the debate so that the only "pure" form of brexit was no deal. Brexit purity was an argument between leavers: don't try and pretend that was the fault of remainers.

Tell me, what did the government ever do to try to bring remainers on board other than to disdain us, disenfranchise us or tell us " we lost"?

I could easily have been won around to the decision. As a former remainer, there were aspects of EU membership I was keen to see retained. We aren't even talking about compromising on brexit here; there was absolutely no set criteria of what leaving would look like.

But no attempt was ever made to create consensus between the moderate brexiteers and the moderate remainers, who made the vast majority of both sides. Instead, Mrs May's government treated all remainers as an occupied population and became enslaved to the extremists of the brexit side
 
Basha73 said:
In other words it’s all the fault of Remainers that Brexit is a nightmare. Utter garbage.

The Brexit vote was a binary vote. Leave or remain.

Remain voters were voting for the status quo.

What were leave voters voting for? Hard Brexit? Soft Brexit? Brexit with a deal? No deal? Remain in the common market or not...?

You can blame Remainers all you like but the reality is that everyone had different ideas of what Brexit means and nobody would agree or compromise. Wnff de that’s before you factor in the incompetence of successive governments.

And you still can’t tell us what benefits we will get from Brexit...
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The first few are pretty obvious, more to come.

We now live in a democracy where our own government can make its own decisions.
Control of our borders
Can negotiate our own trade deals
Vaccinations started earlier/ not tied into the EU purchase scheme.
Saved 12 to 15 billion EU contributions
Probably saved circa £100 billion on the EU covid scheme (circa 13% of 750 billion euros)
Left the Common agricultural policy
No VAT on sanitary products
 
Pope John XXIII said:
None of that is true LK.

The overwhelming majority of MPs, including Soubry, did impement the decision by voting for article 50.

They then had every right to take part in the decisions as to what the final relationship would look like, as did the 16.1 million remain voters

The tragedy in this was the ERG and Mrs May. She immediately took a hard Brexit stance, which encouraged the ERG. The hard brexiteers steered the debate so that the only "pure" form of brexit was no deal. Brexit purity was an argument between leavers: don't try and pretend that was the fault of remainers.

Tell me, what did the government ever do to try to bring remainers on board other than to disdain us, disenfranchise us or tell us " we lost"?

I could easily have been won around to the decision. As a former remainer, there were aspects of EU membership I was keen to see retained. We aren't even talking about compromising on brexit here; there was absolutely no set criteria of what leaving would look like.

But no attempt was ever made to create consensus between the moderate brexiteers and the moderate remainers, who made the vast majority of both sides. Instead, Mrs May's government treated all remainers as an occupied population and became enslaved to the extremists of the brexit side
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As we've said before, like left and right, it depends where you stand on the line. May and Hammond were Remainers, as were most of their government. She went about Brexit with the enthusiasm of someone being held over a barrel. In the 2016 referendum circa 480 out of 650 MPs voted Remain, so why would Parliament be heading for a hard Brexit ? Something like 60% of Tories voted Remain, never mind the rest of them. Not sure of the Parliamentary makeup after the 2017 election, but bearing in mind Labour won 30 seats, and the Tories lost 13, I would guess the makeup was even more pro-remain.

Telling the electorate you will implement their wishes meant Soubry had to vote for article 50. Everything she did afterwards indicated she would do everything possible to stop it. She wanted a second referendum on the EU, but wasn't willing to submit to her own second vote, to see what her electorate thought about her quitting her party. At least she got her just desserts in the last election.

:: 480 MPs said they would be voting Remain, including 184 Conservatives

:: 159 MPs said they would be voting Leave, including 139 Conservatives

:: 11 MPs were undeclared, including four Conservatives

This gives Remain a notional Commons majority of at least 310.
 
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Lienking said:
The first few are pretty obvious, more to come.

We now live in a democracy where our own government can make its own decisions.
Control of our borders
Can negotiate our own trade deals
Vaccinations started earlier/ not tied into the EU purchase scheme.
Saved 12 to 15 billion EU contributions
Probably saved circa £100 billion on the EU covid scheme (circa 13% of 750 billion euros)
Left the Common agricultural policy
No VAT on sanitary products
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And how does that compare to the trade deals we have lost? And the extra we have to pay on tariffs?

We always did live in a democracy where our government could make its own decisions. It’s just that there were checks and balances.

The fact you are trying to use it as a benefit shows just how far you are having to reach. And if you have to use the word ‘probably’ then you know you are on the losing end of it.
 
Lienking said:
As we've said before, like left and right, it depends where you stand on the line. May and Hammond were Remainers, as were most of their government. She went about Brexit with the enthusiasm of someone being held over a barrel. In the 2016 referendum circa 480 out of 650 MPs voted Remain, so why would Parliament be heading for a hard Brexit ? Something like 60% of Tories voted Remain, never mind the rest of them. Not sure of the Parliamentary makeup after the 2017 election, but bearing in mind Labour won 30 seats, and the Tories lost 13, I would guess the makeup was even more pro-remain.

Telling the electorate you will implement their wishes meant Soubry had to vote for article 50. Everything she did afterwards indicated she would do everything possible to stop it. She wanted a second referendum on the EU, but wasn't willing to submit to her own second vote, to see what her electorate thought about her quitting her party. At least she got her just desserts in the last election.

:: 480 MPs said they would be voting Remain, including 184 Conservatives

:: 159 MPs said they would be voting Leave, including 139 Conservatives

:: 11 MPs were undeclared, including four Conservatives

This gives Remain a notional Commons majority of at least 310.
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Rather sinister that you hold it against people how they voted

Not sure why that matters if you truly don't believe in tribalism. Surely it would matter more to you how they campaigned? How many remain campaign events did Theresa May do? None- I'll give you the answer.

You say she went after brexit half heartedly. Really? She quickly alienated every single one of the 16.1m remainers (and we mattered too- our vote did not remove our citizenship) with her "Brexit means Brexit" speech, clearly setting out hard brexit as her goal with no space for freedom of movement.

I am being genuine here- it is deeply disturbing that you are holding the private votes of MPs against them. You are basically disenfranchising private citizens there. You could vote remain without being a dedicated, tribal remainer. I know lots of brexiteers who were deeply divided on it
 
The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine and I don't have specific details for each death, they say frail and elderly patients.

Apparently "common adverse reactions to mRNA vaccines, such as fever and nausea".

Sounds expected, and maybe not a huge surprise as the trials were all generally done on young and healthy people.
 
Lienking said:
The first few are pretty obvious, more to come.

We now live in a democracy where our own government can make its own decisions.
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We have lived in a democracy since 1688 and we were always able to make our own decisions.

Which particular EU law, which we had no say over, are you personally looking forward to getting rid of?

Lienking said:
Control of our borders
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We always could, as Mr Macron made abundantly clear at Christmas. The immigration most people tend to be concerned about is immigration from outside the EU that we always had full control of.

Lienking said:
Can negotiate our own trade deals
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From a massive position of weakness, and at the expense of the biggest, closest and most lucrative trade partner we could ever have.

And at consequence of course. Big economies want something in return. Free movement perhaps. How will brexiteers be sold on a FTD with India that requires free movement, for instance?

Lienking said:
Vaccinations started earlier/ not tied into the EU purchase scheme.
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Utterly irrelevant as no EU country was required to be in the scheme. 3m people vaccinated so far; still going miles within capacity

Lienking said:
Saved 12 to 15 billion EU contributions
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At a cost of hundreds of billions in trade and other benefits of membership.

Lienking said:
Probably saved circa £100 billion on the EU covid scheme (circa 13% of 750 billion euros)
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Which we would have been free to vote against and negotiate on

Lienking said:
Left the Common agricultural policy
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Which massively benefitted our inefficient farmers and actually paid many of the landed aristocracy who were in favour of this to keep land out if use.

Lienking said:
No VAT on sanitary products
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You've got me here. I believe the EU required a minimum 5% tax on sanitary products. Not sure how much money that is going to save you personally from now, but I'm glad you think that one victory was worth all the consequences.

Maybe ask fish woman from earlier if she would prefer to be able to get her shellfish delivered before they go bad or 5% off Tampax?
 
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Being reported this morning...

All over 18s could have vaccine by 'end of June'

Whitehall sources say plan is to vaccinate four to five million people a week within months.

the great news of our vaccine program is getting better by the day.
 
Fun fact: More people in the U.K. have now been vaccinated against Covid-19 than have ever tested positive here.
 
Strett said:
Being reported this morning...

All over 18s could have vaccine by 'end of June'

Whitehall sources say plan is to vaccinate four to five million people a week within months.

the great news of our vaccine program is getting better by the day.
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Which June? At the current rate it won’t be June of this year.

Four to five million a week would be great if true but can’t see it happening.
 
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