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#COVID19

paz1967

Vital Champions League
Tens of thousands dead
Billions lost or wasted
Led by bullies, liars and theives
Debt over 100% of gdp

No, not corbyn, the conservative party! Surely to god no one wants this current conservative govt, country cant take much more imo
hard to have sympathy when its clear what people voted for; selfishness. At least in the middle n northern England. You reap what you sow n all that.
Those arent his opinions tho, they are 100% facts
 

pebble

Vital 1st Team Regular
This doesn't help things. Again they're underestimating how much support Corbyn had from all walks of life.

I was more shocked by Joan Bakewell saying Corbyn should not have been readmitted to the Labour party. It was like they'd all drunk the kool-aid.

I can see the political reality, Starmer's aides urging that he has to denounce Corbyn loudly to win back the Jewish vote, but it's gone beyond that. Seems like most people really believe the lie.
 

pebble

Vital 1st Team Regular
And because anti-semitism is such a sensitive topic, the Guardian is very twitchy about it. Usually they allow online comments on Steve Bell cartoons.

I noticed there was no discussion allowed of his John the Baptist one (Starmer as Salome with Corbyn's head on a platter), so when Corbyn was readmitted to the party I posted a comment under a different Belltoon asking if he might be doing another one showing Starmer reluctantly reattaching the head.

It was deleted without even a message saying why. I persisted, and got the message ('...breached community standards'''). I tried to complain and was sent round the houses, one email came back undelivered...the Labour party's not the only body with a poor complaints process!

If I try to post now, I get a message saying my comments are being pre-moderated. I tested the waters with a comment on another Belltoon in midweek (no problem, comment allowed). I gave my opinion of Barnsley v Forest just now, and it was deleted without explanation again!

Probably a kid on work experience in the moderator's seat tonight, sees a flag against my name, deletes the comment...but it's shocking service to a loyal reader. I've sent a stiff email of complaint and expect to hear nothing back.
 

pebble

Vital 1st Team Regular
Considering your comments on the holocaust you need moderating.
That's what I love about you.

What comments on the holocaust???

You seriously need your head testing.

I've given links for everything I've said and tried to step lightly between violently opposed middle eastern protagonists, but it's all gone way over your head. Maybe grow up.
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
That's what I love about you.

What comments on the holocaust???

You seriously need your head testing.

I've given links for everything I've said and tried to step lightly between violently opposed middle eastern protagonists, but it's all gone way over your head. Maybe grow up.
You've given links to 4 folk kicked out of the Labour Party by Jeremy Corbyn for anti-semitism to prove there is no anti-semitism. No hint of irony or anything.

You also said Holocaust Memorial day should include Palestinians killed by Jews. That's either anti-semitism or just stupidity, hard really to know with you though.

You may wish to Google what genocide is, if you already know then it was anti-semitism.
 

pebble

Vital 1st Team Regular
The annoying thing is that you sometimes make comments which suggest we could actually have a conversation.

Like the idea that pro-Palestinian activists might slide into anti-semitism over the years just by a habit of denouncing Israel. There may be some who do. I've considered that too.

But every survey, even one by the biased CAA, found that left wing voters are less anti-semitic than everyone else.

More anti-Israel, but less anti-semitic.

So unless someone finds evidence to the contrary, it looks very much as though mischief-makers have tried to equate criticism of Netanyahu with anti-semitism - and succeeded.

Personally, I think that shows a disgusting ability to use the suffering of people who actually died in the Holocaust to further grubby and fairly fascist political agendas. Maybe you don't even see that, but it affects all our futures.
 

pebble

Vital 1st Team Regular
You've given links to 4 folk kicked out of the Labour Party by Jeremy Corbyn for anti-semitism to prove there is no anti-semitism. No hint of irony or anything.

You also said Holocaust Memorial day should include Palestinians killed by Jews. That's either anti-semitism or just stupidity, hard really to know with you though.

You may wish to Google what genocide is, if you already know then it was anti-semitism.
I think you mean I provided links to sites, some of which feature people kicked out, some of whom are Jewish!

One of the links I gave showed some posts which allegedly got people suspended or expelled from the party. A couple shared a link on Holocaust Day asking people to remember Palestinians killed during the creation of Israel.

I tried to use a football analogy to make you understand. Maybe (although it strains the analogy) I should have used Hillsborough.

Mao recently posted an eloquent account of why he feels ticketless Liverpool fans bear some of the blame for that tragedy. He didn't imply any disrespect for those who died. Such sentiments come from the heart and shouldn't be dismissed, but would be foolish and offensive if proclaimed by loudhailer in the middle of Liverpool.

Same goes for people sharing those FB posts. They no doubt felt passionately that there was a further story to be told, but AFAIK they weren't sending the posts to Jewish members. My point is that we need to bring people together, and I feel Corbyn (bless him!) wanted to do that. Kicking people out for sharing those posts won't help.

As for those Corbyn kicked out, I don't know enough to judge, but I'd suggest he came under pressure as the party adopted a shockingly flawed IHRA definition of anti-semitism which pretty much bans any criticism of Israel. When a black Jewish woman is expelled from a party for anti-semitism, I can see why lefties get upset.

Maybe you'd like to comment on another FB post which apparently got someone into trouble. A quote from Michael Rosen (Jewish, sometime children's laureate, almost died of covid).

"If people combatting antisemitism in the Labour Party are not combatting antisemitism in the Tory Party then they're not combatting antisemitism. They're combatting the Labour Party."

How can it be anti-semitic to share that quote?
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
It's so hard to know where to start, and I really don't have the patience to explain nor you the inclination to listen.

In short though it's irrelevant what the Tories are or aren't - I have very little doubt they're on the whole more bigoted than Labour supporters. What matters is your own actions, what matters is having the moral highground.

I have 0 interest in the childlike argument that they're worse than us as a cover for our own sins.

You can't combat anti-semitism elsewhere until your own hands are clean.

Constant excuse making, minimising and casting blame elsewhere just gives breathing room for those who hold repulsive views. Is that what you wish to do? Because it is the effect of your actions and some of those in the Labour party, including members of the hierarchy.

It doesn't matter that the Tories used it against you effectively, it doesn't matter sections of the media used it against you, it doesn't matter if it's not as bad as some of us think, it doesn't matter if some of those views were exposed by Jews, it doesn't matter if sometimes anti-semitism is conflated with anti-zionism in an inaccurate way.

It's fucking irrelevant.

What matter is that anti-semitism existed and still exists in the Labour Party and everything possible that can be done should be done to re-educate and stamp it out. That can only be achieved by acknowledging the problem first and then taking every action you can. That did not happen and Labour should be ashamed.

And if as a by product of stamping it out a well meaning privileged old white jam maker who couldn't acknowledge let alone deal with the issue is slightly harshly treated then so be it.
 

pebble

Vital 1st Team Regular
You remind me of myself around 1971.

At Sheffield Uni, working at West Bridgford library in the summer holiday. Met Pam there and we got involved. She turned me on to Van Morrison's 'Astral weeks', though at first I found his voice a bit rough and grating. After a few listens it became an all-time favourite, but I digress.

She started going on about Palestine and I naively said 'But the Jews - the Holocaust - victims...' She pointed out that things might have moved on since then.

Not that I've kept up with it at all. Middle class, British, can't be doing with all that middle eastern stuff. But it's nagged away like a rotten tooth.

Maybe I'll get all fervent about it in my old age, but it still feels like not my problem.

And yet Israel, our ally here in the civilised west, is a nuclear power with the ability to trigger WW3 very easily. Maybe we should hold that country to account more... but no, as you argue, that would clearly be anti-semitic and disrespectful to the victims of the Holocaust, so let's just pass by on the other side, putting our fingers in our ears and humming 'I can't hear you'.
 

pebble

Vital 1st Team Regular
You can't combat anti-semitism elsewhere until your own hands are clean.

What matter is that anti-semitism existed and still exists in the Labour Party and everything possible that can be done should be done to re-educate and stamp it out. That can only be achieved by acknowledging the problem first and then taking every action you can. That did not happen and Labour should be ashamed.
OK, so how do we do that?

NOT by adopting some cockeyed definition of antisemitism which is more about stifling criticism of Israel!

That won't root out antisemitism - it'll just flood any complaints system with false positives, people not in the least anti-semitic who oppose Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

You were like this over cheating by other teams - Forest were bottom of the fair play league, Forest players are always cheating, we need to put our own house in order.

Fine, if there was a real problem - but it doesn't actually make all the cheating by other teams go away.

With anti-semitism, the point is a bit more serious. While you're subjecting Labour party members to the inquisition for thoughtcrime, real fascist thugs do real damage Some of them might call themselves Zionists these days. But you're looking the other way, so you don't even see them.
 
The issue isn't if Corbyn is an anti-semite or not, I think he would be horrified to be labelled that way. It's if a culture that began out of genuine concerns over Israeli policy and concern for the Palestinian people allowed something more insidious to breed within Labour.

The lines between anti-semite and anti-zionism blurred, and even if JC himself wasn't leading an anti-semitic charge there was an element of turning a blind eye.

By minimising bigotry you allow it to flourish and as much as folk want to dance around and blame the media and the Jews (without a hint of irony from some posters here) it us real and repugnant.

As a leader you are responsible for those you lead. As a leader you are responsible for the culture you create.

Do I think JC is an anti-semite? No.
Do I think he played a part in creating the conditions where it flourished in Labour? Yes.

He and his followers can deny responsibility all they like, they can keep minimising and blaming everyone else but this is the reality.
How much more rancid, vacuous, uninformed bullshit on the subject of Zionism and anti-Semitism do we have to suffer from you?

Genuine question by the way!
 
Skwawkbox, in my experience, appears to be largely fake news, as Breitbart is.

Much to my surprise, on researching the Canary actually has a very high rating in terms of passing fact checks; I therefore I'm happy to withdraw my comments about that site's equivalency with alt right media. Ther eis no doubt that the far left has its own echo chambers just as the alt right does; it's just that my experience of far left echo chambers is that they spend far more time attacking people they consider to not be left enough than they do people on the right. Meanwhile, the right is pretty concentrated in its meme based attacks on the left.

There is no evidence of any forces working to remove Corbyn. Right wing media did not like him and did not want him in power because they felt he would seriously harm theirs (and everyone else's) interests. There is nothing clandestine or shadowy about that.

The forces that removed Theresa May as PM are far more sinister. And remember that Mr Corbyn was not removed from his position. Recent tradition is that a leader resigns if his MPs have no confidence in him or if they lose an election. Mr Corbyn defied both if those valuable conventions for his own ends and convenience. That he resigned after two election defeats, the latter a historically disastrous one, is neither a conspiracy nor a surprise. It was simply Mr Corbyn doing the right thing after trying literally everything else.
"And everyone else's interests" - is that supposed to be a joke? Right wing media concerned for anyone else's interests?
How far to the right of the spectrum are you really?
 

da fuq

Vital Champions League
How much more rancid, vacuous, uninformed bullshit on the subject of Zionism and anti-Semitism do we have to suffer from you?

Genuine question by the way!

If this is about CP then it will be a never ending stream of opinionated shite

That is what Antisemites do

Some like Apollyon and Woanz try and dress it up with " Humour " but it is still there
 

Woanz

Vital Football Legend
What is the one thing Jeremy Corbyn and KEITH Starmer have in common

They both are were Leaders of Labour and never became PM's

When Memes are being made by people like the Anniverary of the Miners strike like the one below you know Labour are fucked
The anniversary of the miners strike are some of the stupidest most delusional cretins outside of your house.

They think the whole world is against them