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strettea red said:
That’s not as clever a statement as you think, he is unelected, but has been chosen by an elected mp, ergo he can be removed at the ballot box; something that is quite impossible in the EU which you are trying to draw parallels with.
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Funny; I remember voting in several European elections.

I never had the opportunity to choose Boris Johnson as PM from July- December last year though, nor Dom Cummings. That privilege went to 100,000 people only
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Funny; I remember voting in several European elections.

I never had the opportunity to choose Boris Johnson as PM from July- December last year though, nor Dom Cummings. That privilege went to 100,000 people only
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I’d wager you’ve never chosen the pm, but you could if you joined a political party.
I’d wager you’ve never chosen the President of the European Commission, and would never be able to.
 
strettea red said:
I’d wager you’ve never chosen the pm, but you could if you joined a political party.
I’d wager you’ve never chosen the President of the European Commission, and would never be able to.
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I can choose the PM usually by voting. In Johnson's case people did not have that opportunity.

That is in fairness part of our constitution. Both Major and Brown did the same. You could argue Brown got what he deserved for not holding the confirmatory election in 2007-8 that he almost certainly would have won.

I have not chosen the leader of the European Commission, but I have had a say in choosing who chooses them
 
Why did Tory mp’s get rid of May. Because they could see themselves being voted out by a disgruntled electorate. How do you get rid of Ursula?
 
Polly 433 said:
Why did Tory mp’s get rid of May. Because they could see themselves being voted out by a disgruntled electorate. How do you get rid of Ursula?
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Not according to polling they couldn't. They were between 1 and 3 points behind Labour when she resigned. Nowhere near enough for Labour to win. It would have been a hung parliament, most likely with the Tories as the biggest party again. Labour had been further ahead in 2017 after the election and Grenfell.

Tories got rid of her because the ERG stabbed her in the back and wanted Johnson
 
strettea red said:
That’s not as clever a statement as you think...
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I see what you did there.

strettea red said:
That’s not as clever a statement as you think, he is unelected, but has been chosen by an elected mp, ergo he can be removed at the ballot box; something that is quite impossible in the EU which you are trying to draw parallels with.
Click to expand...
He can't be removed if he's sitting in the HoL, can he?
And, even now, are you suggesting that we can get rid of him, but only if we unseat the prime minister first?? And only then if his successor's whim is to kick him out of his job? Since he is calling all the shots right now, that's some control you think we have!

Parallels are perfectly reasonable since the usual dig at the EU - a dig that was crafted by the man in question - is that it is "full of unelected bureaucrats" that have undue influence on our lives.
EU Commissioners are nominated by democratically elected representatives of member states. This is a civil service role in a similar manner to that under which Cummings currently operates yet you seem to think is fine. The only difference is that EU scrutiny is much more arduous than Boris putting his minder into the top job because they first have to be scrutinised by democratically elected members of the European parliament before they take a vote on their suitability. We vote in the European parliament.
So, when you look at the facts and the detail, there is indeed a difference. I doubt very much that a megalomaniac like Dominic Cummings would pass such scrutiny, do you?
The EU is more democratic that the UK - fact.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I can choose the PM usually by voting. In Johnson's case people did not have that opportunity.

That is in fairness part of our constitution. Both Major and Brown did the same. You could argue Brown got what he deserved for not holding the confirmatory election in 2007-8 that he almost certainly would have won.

I have not chosen the leader of the European Commission, but I have had a say in choosing who chooses them
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You haven’t though. MEPs don’t nominate any of the candidates for EU President.
 
strettea red said:
You haven’t though. MEPs don’t nominate any of the candidates for EU President.
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There is no such thing as EU President and I think you know that.

There is President of the Council (elected by EU heads of state), President of the Parliament (elected by MEPs who are elected by us) and President of the Commission (nominated by Commissioners, who are chosen by EU heads of state, and then elected by MEPs, who are elected by us).

People assume it is less democratic because it is bigger, and as a result everything is one step further removed; we don't elect the leaders directly, we elect the people who elect the leaders. This helps protect countries with smaller populations from not being heard.

But ITTO is correct; in many ways the EU is more democratic than the UK. I suspect many on the right would be quite receptive to that argument if we currently had a Corbyn Government.
 
strettea red said:
You haven’t though. MEPs don’t nominate any of the candidates for EU President.
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So only the second part of this is true. Even then, while it is technically true, it is also a deeply misleading bit of incendiary misdirection. We have all had our say to elect people who appoint the EC pres. and you are implying we haven't by referring only to MEPs.

Unfortunately, the people of Great Britain picked a clown as our chief. How embarrassing.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
There is no such thing as EU President and I think you know that.

There is President of the Council (elected by EU heads of state), President of the Parliament (elected by MEPs who are elected by us) and President of the Commission (nominated by Commissioners, who are chosen by EU heads of state, and then elected by MEPs, who are elected by us).

People assume it is less democratic because it is bigger, and as a result everything is one step further removed; we don't elect the leaders directly, we elect the people who elect the leaders. This helps protect countries with smaller populations from not being heard.

But ITTO is correct; in many ways the EU is more democratic than the UK. I suspect many on the right would be quite receptive to that argument if we currently had a Corbyn Government.
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Yes. I was, rather naughtily and lazily tapping on my phone whilst waiting for the longest temporary traffic lights to allow me through.
 
in_the_top_one said:
I see what you did there.


He can't be removed if he's sitting in the HoL, can he?
And, even now, are you suggesting that we can get rid of him, but only if we unseat the prime minister first?? And only then if his successor's whim is to kick him out of his job? Since he is calling all the shots right now, that's some control you think we have!

Parallels are perfectly reasonable since the usual dig at the EU - a dig that was crafted by the man in question - is that it is "full of unelected bureaucrats" that have undue influence on our lives.
EU Commissioners are nominated by democratically elected representatives of member states. This is a civil service role in a similar manner to that under which Cummings currently operates yet you seem to think is fine. The only difference is that EU scrutiny is much more arduous than Boris putting his minder into the top job because they first have to be scrutinised by democratically elected members of the European parliament before they take a vote on their suitability. We vote in the European parliament.
So, when you look at the facts and the detail, there is indeed a difference. I doubt very much that a megalomaniac like Dominic Cummings would pass such scrutiny, do you?
The EU is more democratic that the UK - fact.
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The election process is as democratically transparent as most, this is a fact I wouldn’t choose to argue with, the accountability whilst in post though has a deficit of any semblance of democracy.
Also, Uniquely in democracy, the EU Parliament cannot propose legislation. It can amend and reject but cannot initiate new acts. But, which For me is absolutely where the issue lies, the EU Parliament is the ONLY place within the EU structure that has any direct claim to democratic accountability.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Trump has just said that George Floyd will be looking down from heaven at the rising US job figures and thinking that it is a great day for the country

That's not a joke. You couldn't possibly satirise something like that.
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Well he said it's "a great day for our country, it's a great day for him, it's a great great day for our country, for equality." Or something bollox like that. In the clip I've seen he didn't say anything about job figures.


Not sure it's really such a great day for him. What with him lying in the morgue and all...
 
strettea red said:
The election process is as democratically transparent as most, this is a fact I wouldn’t choose to argue with, the accountability whilst in post though has a deficit of any semblance of democracy.
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There is a deficit, but that's the same in all democracies. How much accountability does BJ have in office right now? Fuck all, as is quite clearly apparent.

strettea red said:
Also, Uniquely in democracy, the EU Parliament cannot propose legislation. It can amend and reject but cannot initiate new acts. But, which For me is absolutely where the issue lies, the EU Parliament is the ONLY place within the EU structure that has any direct claim to democratic accountability.
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Again, this is a misdirection. Who puts the commission in place? And who sets the agenda under which they initiate new acts? Unlike our own civil service, the commissioners only sit for 5 years. They are selected according to the wishes and agenda of the elected representatives.

I hope these facts are helping to assuage some of your fears. Maybe this is just an unfortunate dalliance with susceptibility to misinformation that you are going through and you will return to clear-sightedness soon. This thread could be your metaphorical drive to Barnard Castle.


Also, Are you saying there is no legitimacy in the democratic accountability of the European Council? Ha ha. It's a three-cornered hat and I think you can only see two. Two are directly elected (Council and Parliament [notwithstanding the legitimacy of some of our prime ministers who are parachuted in after a resignation]). The third corner is the commission which are temporary posts selected by directly elected members.
 
strettea red said:
The election process is as democratically transparent as most, this is a fact I wouldn’t choose to argue with, the accountability whilst in post though has a deficit of any semblance of democracy.
Also, Uniquely in democracy, the EU Parliament cannot propose legislation. It can amend and reject but cannot initiate new acts. But, which For me is absolutely where the issue lies, the EU Parliament is the ONLY place within the EU structure that has any direct claim to democratic accountability.
Click to expand...
Do you believe your elected head of state doesn't have democratic accountability then? Because everything that isn't decided by the MEPs is decided by heads of state, or by people chosen by them (commissioners)
 
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