Brexit Day! | Page 27 | Vital Football

Brexit Day!

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It's an interesting point and one I have been mulling over for months.

There are elements but only elements. Trump's trading philosophy is reminiscent of some aspects in the lead up to WWI but his isolationism isnt; WWI was about major powers being in alliance, not spurning them. It was also linked to ethnic self determination that had been denied for centuries, and that kind of thing exists only in tiny pockets now; Palestinians, Kurds, Catalans.

In terms of the rise of nationalism/facism priotlr to WWII again there are elements; particularly in Trump's America.

But the intent is totally different and I think that is important at this stage (it might not be later)

Trump doesn't have a fascist world view. His world view is that of a gangster or a despotic monarch. It is an ego centric world view. He will absolutely embrace people who hold a fascist world view to promote his own authority, but it isn't a view he holds himself.

Likewise, Johnson probably has elitist sympathies that might just about border on historic "betters and inferiors" eugenicism. But his aim is very much about staying in power. If he needs to placate the red wall to do that, he'll do it. If he needs to spend to do it, he will do that.

Johnson recognises that what you say is ten times more important than what you do. He can do almost anything he likes; he can destroy lives, trash job markets, scrap the NHS. As long as he tells people he has done the opposite, the requisite press echo that and then the boomers come out in force on facebook, he will be fine.

He learned this from Trump. Case in point;

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So many Americans believe the growing cult of personality around Trump. They believe he was sent by god. I cannot begin to fathom how they can possibly associate anything Trump does as being related to the Bible. He is the opposite of Jesus's teachings in every respect and the embodiment of every single deadly sin. And yet, this is what he has built.

In that sense, yes, there are alarming similarities to Hitler, Mussolini and Putin and you can see some of that in Johnson's immunity to criticism too.

But the intent is not there. Hitler had the Blood and soil racial world view and pursued it. Trump and Johnson don't. They will appoint loyalists who keep them in power and it is to them we should look for a direction.

In this case, look at Dominic Cummings, as well as Patel, Raab and Truss. I loathe them all, but none are fascists

I think you underestimate the fragility of the current world order. I think there is little doubt that capitalism in its current form is plunging deeper and deeper into crisis. I might also point out that the world is already at war in any number of places it is just people think it could never happen in Europe. Living standards continue to decline, social cohesion also continues to decline. It is surely the irony of our time when there is so much coordinated actions necessary, we have chosen to go it alone.
 
I enjoyed reading that. Why include the customary dig at boomers? There will in my opinion never ever be another World War. The internet will see to that.
It wasn't a dig in fairness.

Political memes, particularly right wing ones, really are a boomer phenomenon. Generation Z don't go near Facebook and only the oldest millennials (like myself) do.
 
I think you underestimate the fragility of the current world order. I think there is little doubt that capitalism in its current form is plunging deeper and deeper into crisis. I might also point out that the world is already at war in any number of places it is just people think it could never happen in Europe. Living standards continue to decline, social cohesion also continues to decline. It is surely the irony of our time when there is so much coordinated actions necessary, we have chosen to go it alone.
Yes, but the intent to create a racist state still isn't there from the key players. And one of those key players (Britain) is plummetting down the world order due to the greatest example of national self harm since 1945.

Don't get me wrong; I think American democracy will be very, very lucky to survive Trump. His supporters already getting very close to a level of disdain for "liberalism" that they would accept a Trump dictatorship.

The horrendous, spineless Republicans have given him a blank cheque to behave however he wants after the impeachment trial. They have demonstrated that they are willing to dispense with democracy rather than allow Democrats into power to do very slightly different things than they would. Trump is unimpeachable and he knows it; there is no check on his behaviour now. He has delivered retribution against those that testified against him openly (itself illegal) and is now claiming to be the "Chief Law enforcement officer" of the US and is pardoning and reducing the sentences of various supporters who have been imprisoned for corruption, as well as trying to get Roger Stone off.

When DF talks about echoes of Nazism, this kind of creeping authoritarianism is likely what he is talking about. Trump is acting as a dictator. Very rarely does he ever try to put anything past Congress; almost all his (very few pieces of) legislation has been executive orders. Not unusual in itself, but the balance is. His abuse of his powers to confer immunity on those loyal to him is very remiscent if the gangster politics of the early Third Reich, the 1933 part.

The next stage would be to find an excuse to declare some kind of emergency and blame it on political opponents. An early version of this we have already seen with the Biden-Ukraine thing. Can he find an excuse to find certain Democrats guilty of treason or some other such crime?

That's tough. If he targets Black, Asian or Jewish democrats he has a better chance. Find a way to legally discredit some and he discredits all. But he has made the country so polarised that half the population would be unlikely to fall for or support such a move; isolate it to ethnic minority members like AOC and he might win over 60%.

His best bet might be to provoke a mini civil war of political outrage, protest and disobedience by democrat Americans and use that as a reason to call in the national guard and demand special powers. That would be the ideal historical route.

Trump is no mastermind though. He is an inherently stupid and ignorant being, who reacts purely on instinct. This sort of thing would happen not by planning but by opportunism. Whether he has someone behind the scenes smart enough to plan this and get him to gamble on it (Ivanka or Kushner) remains to be seen.

I suspect such a plan would be precipitated if he was expected to lose the election or after, as I suspect he would gamble on a second term first and his team would initiate any takeover only when his final constitutional term is over, as Putin is doing. Trump has been consistently testing the water on breaking the constitutional term limit through his tweets throughout; clearly the idea of staying on indefinitely is one that appeals to him.

He may of course possibly accept his two terms and accept instead a presidential dynasty, pushing Ivanka to the "throne". His supporters are already buying into a cult of personality around this.

If he loses the election it would be fascinating to see what happens. The chances of him accepting a result that goes against him are not great. How deeply ingrained are his loyalists across the government? Not that ingrained. Plenty were willing to testify against him. How right wing and supportive are the armed forces? I'm not convinced that they especially are. The secret services and FBI are certainly not his friends. There is no constitutional mechanism to remove a president who refuses to leave office I don't think as someone like Trump has never been anticipated.

In this country it is both more and less scary. In the USA you have the consolation that the people at the top are not remotely intelligent men and women. At the top of our system you have phenomenally intelligent men and women. Johnson and Cummings are two strategizing politicians at the top of their game, who understand both history and marketing.

They are going to do everything they can to improve the power of the executive, remove the power of the Judiciary and parliament and gerrymander future elections in their favour (voter ID for example).

But while I see plenty of evidence they want to rig the game in their favour and have more central control, I see no similar evidence they want rid of the game altogether.

The most dangerous thing for democracy is when one wing if politics convinced itself that the opposition wing are a danger to their country and will destroy it if they win power. With that belief you can justify any action to keep them out. This is what is happening in the USA on both sides.

It has happened to an extent here. Keeping Corbyn out became a crusade. This is why the election of Starmer is so crucial. Being more moderate, it becomes less of a disaster to Tory MPs and voters it the opposition get in. The need to trash democracy to "save it" is not there. After 15 years in power it could be that some Tory MPs are exhausted and willing to accept a period out of power to reinvigorate and reflect, just as they ceded to Blair in 1997.

The danger comes if Johnson succeeds in selling an ideological economic crusade belonging to Truss, Raab and co.

Anyone interested in this further should read the excellent Why Democracies Die
 
I enjoyed reading that. Why include the customary dig at boomers? There will in my opinion never ever be another World War. The internet will see to that.

From what I've read on here, WW3 will probably be caused by the internet !
 
bearing in mind we were a tentacle and used to get a say, which bits are so badly wrong? is the environmental protections? is it the employment rights? not sure how international cooperation became subjugation- perhaps you should speak with the jewish community to find out what genuine subjugation actually looks like.
Not to mention the citizens of former communist and fascist states given stability and protection by the EU.
 
You do embarrass your self at times

There are moments when I think " you know what CP is up there with the likes of Feco, ITTO"

But then I remember you going all wiki wiki wiki wild west


So will just pull your pud and let you get all narky and obviously give you time to go all wiki wiki wiki wild west and do a bit of reading

Then watch as you type furiously and make some mistakes

Shook

That's a surprise, you choose meltdown over engaging. The old favourites really are the best, especially when yet again you've been caught talking out of your arse.

Go away, ask a grown up about the points I raised, don't return until you've something intelligible to contribute.
 
He didn't say security. He said stability and protection. Not the same thing at all.

And let's not forget what a dead duck NATO is while Trump is president of the USA
Yes I agree that the EU gave Europe stability and protection, however as the biggest bully in Europe had been given a good kicking, finally the other members probably didn't need it.
 
Not to mention the citizens of former communist and fascist states given stability and protection by the EU.
Robbing nation states of the self-confidence to properly serve their populations. Replaced with a grey soup of authoritarian, rimless-glass wearing bureaucrats, who only get moist when there is a new directive to be drafted. They never learn from their mistakes, they double down.
 
Not sure that's going to be possible

But if you have something to say, by all means pluck up a bit of courage and say it before you lose your nerve and disappear from posting for another 9 years or whatever it is

Just adding some sense to the Remainer weighted spiff-fest that are outnumbering these pages. Anyway, we can't be remainers and leavers anymore. So what will become the collective noun for the prune faced, heavily pubed, anti democratic, thundertwats?
 
Just adding some sense to the Remainer weighted spiff-fest that are outnumbering these pages. Anyway, we can't be remainers and leavers anymore. So what will become the collective noun for the prune faced, heavily pubed, anti democratic, thundertwats?

All very nice and faux controversial, but I think you were talking about my children?
 
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