Bit of Brexit info required.

[Lienking]

EU is Hitler by the back door?? Did I miss the Concentration Camps, and genocide set up by the European Parliament?

To be honest Lienking, that is a pretty outrageous comment and shows a complete lack of understanding of history.
I guess it explains your views on how the world works.

We don't have genocide etc. , but it is little more than imposing a political view on millions of people, and denying nations the right to govern in their own way. Short of losing their billions of pounds, if they are a democratic organisation, does it matter to them if we leave? Of course it doesn't . They should be making an agreement which is best for everyone However they see it as potentially the start of the breakdown of their attempt for Germany and France to govern the whole of Europe from Brussels and Strasbourg (yes, they even waste billions on two centres because they are incapable of coming to an agreement on one centre). They want one army, one tax system and "ever closer union".

I am sure I understand history just as well as you. My dad fought in WW2 to keep the independence of our country, following which our politicians of all parties have handed it's rule over to foreign politicians. I don't ever remember us being allowed any say on this (unlike many other countries who have held regular referendums) though historically any that have voted against the EU wants have been forced to hold a second referendum, just as the EU is now trying to force the same thing here.

Politicians are cleverer nowadays. They don't need mass murder. They realise they can achieve the same ends by impoverishing nations so they are left in servitude to the German and French financiers for decades to come, as has happened with Greece , Italy next and other countries with mass unemployment.

 

[Lienking]

By the way, the 1975 vote was on the EC. I would be fairly happy to remain in the EC, but I don't ever remember ANY vote since then on any EU matters. Can you find any elections we have had since then when our politicians said to us "part of our election prospectus is the EU are going to do X, do you agree". This doesn't even happen in the MEP elections. Did we have any say on freedom of movement, though this in itself wasn't a problem until the expansion of the EU and Blair selling us down the river. (And yes, this is the man I voted in three times.).

 

[in_the_top_one]

Disgusting.

 

[in_the_top_one]

By the way, the 1975 vote was on the EC. I would be fairly happy to remain in the EC, but I don't ever remember ANY vote since then on any EU matters. Can you find any elections we have had since then when our politicians said to us "part of our election prospectus is the EU are going to do X, do you agree". This doesn't even happen in the MEP elections. Did we have any say on freedom of movement, though this in itself wasn't a problem until the expansion of the EU and Blair selling us down the river. (And yes, this is the man I voted in three times.).

Every single general election manifesto.

Every single European Parliament election.

 

[in_the_top_one]

Politicians are cleverer nowadays. They don't need mass murder. They realise they can achieve the same ends by impoverishing nations so they are left in servitude to the German and French financiers for decades to come, as has happened with Greece , Italy next and other countries with mass unemployment.

Is this correct? No.
Even if it was, is this "achieving the same ends" as Hitler? No.

Your view of the eu has been poisoned and is beyond the recognition of reality. Even Toms thinks it is a socialist movement. A very, very far cry from fascism.

 

[Lienking]

My view of the EU has been poisoned by 40 years of living in it. There may be a whole spectrum of political ideologies between Hitler and Stalin, and a different approach from Juncker, but at the end of the day their aim is to impose their views on everyone else. It would be interesting to see in a democratic vote with no punishment agenda, just how many of the nations would actually vote to stay in the EU. I believe even Macron has said the French may vote to leave, but of course most political elite don't give the electorate a democratic say. The EU is a trading block, but unlike others insists on having its own political agenda. Will be interesting to see if we make a success of leaving, who will be the first to follow.

 

[toms]

Is this correct? No.
Even if it was, is this "achieving the same ends" as Hitler? No.

Your view of the eu has been poisoned and is beyond the recognition of reality. Even Toms thinks it is a socialist movement. A very, very far cry from fascism.

The EU is without doubt a socialist experiment. All you need to do is look at the rent heads of commissions political backgrounds. On the other hand Socialism can lead to fascist leadership. The Nazis for example derive from the National Socialist Worker party and Hitler preached against the exploitation of the workers by capitalists. Its a grey area but I think you can have a fascist extreme left leader as much as extreme right. Different message but similar outcome

 

[in_the_top_one]

This thread has turned to garbage today.

 

[Feco]

We don't have genocide etc. , but it is little more than imposing a political view on millions of people, and denying nations the right to govern in their own way. Short of losing their billions of pounds, if they are a democratic organisation, does it matter to them if we leave? Of course it doesn't . They should be making an agreement which is best for everyone However they see it as potentially the start of the breakdown of their attempt for Germany and France to govern the whole of Europe from Brussels and Strasbourg (yes, they even waste billions on two centres because they are incapable of coming to an agreement on one centre). They want one army, one tax system and "ever closer union".

I am sure I understand history just as well as you. My dad fought in WW2 to keep the independence of our country, following which our politicians of all parties have handed it's rule over to foreign politicians. I don't ever remember us being allowed any say on this (unlike many other countries who have held regular referendums) though historically any that have voted against the EU wants have been forced to hold a second referendum, just as the EU is now trying to force the same thing here.

Politicians are cleverer nowadays. They don't need mass murder. They realise they can achieve the same ends by impoverishing nations so they are left in servitude to the German and French financiers for decades to come, as has happened with Greece , Italy next and other countries with mass unemployment.

We don’t have genocide now?.......well that’s OK then.

To compare the EU to Hitler, or even the USSR as our current Foreign Minister has just done just shows how far removed from reality people have become.

You yourself have just said how beautiful Austria was, did you see many concentration camps on your travels? Did you have your freedom of movements whilst in Austria withheld? No of course not. Try making that trip in 1939 and see what wouldn’t have happened.

The truth is that Europe has never had such a long period of peace, standards of living has improved everywhere too. Compared to many places in the world we live in a relatively harmonious region.
The EU has many faults, but it’s given us a standard of living that is the envy of many places.
And of course you get a regular vote on your representatives. If you can be bothered to go and vote, you can have a say in how things develop.

The EU has evolved from the EC over 43 years. The referendum in 1975 was to decide continuing membership. By a huge majority, that was the case. In the intervening 43 years you have had many opportunities to make your position clear, to vote for change. You have even stated that you voted 3 times for a man who’s policy you did not agree with.

And now you cry wolf, because you suddenly don’t like it.
And to make your point you compare the EU to the most murderous regime of the last 200 years.

Comments like that really do remove all credibility from your argument.

 

[in_the_top_one]

Spot on.

It's ridiculous. And so is the point that the Nazi's had the word socialist in their earlier name so they were socialists by any current definition. They had as much acquaintance with socialism as Bozzi does with reality.

 

[in_the_top_one]

The EU is without doubt a socialist experiment.

Its policies are derived from the people of europe.

In particular, the elected members of the european parliament from regions within european nations, the heads of state of those european nations, and european civil service (the commission) proposed by the european council (elected heads of state) and voted for by the european parliament (elected MEPs). If the people of europe vote in fascist leaders as their heads of state, and also elect members of fascist parties to the european parliament, then the european union will be controlled by fascists. Under those circumstances, will you still be calling it a socialist movement? Your argument is baseless.

And which bit of this is in any way reminiscent of nazi totalitarianism? None.

 

[Lienking]

You are as usual concentrating on one aspect . If you can name another person who has tried to take over Europe since Napoleon feel free. I voted for Blair 3 times. Maybe you can tell me where I said I disagreed with his policies? The fact he did things that we only find out about years afterwards is another matter.

By the very nature of a general election you are voting on hundreds of policies. Unless a party is set up for one aim (eg UKIP) , I find it very strange that all people in a party would agree with any policies. At a general election you vote for the party that you 60% agree with, or that you agree with on most major issues.

The laughable thing about the EU referendum is that, as far as I can remember, it is one of only four or five votes where it was as clear as possible what we were voting for.

 

[Lienking]

You kept challenging Toms to name the British owned products we will export. However you seem to have missed the challenge to name policies in a general election, or even in EU MEP elections where something such as freedom of movement or the policies of the next EU treaty were part of a UK political party's manifesto, for UK citizens to have any say on the matter.

Going back to Tony Blair, it is only in recent times that he has admitted that he took no regard to cultural or other issues of immigration, but simply worked on the understanding that as most migrants would vote labour, he simply let them all in on the basis that it would boost the labour vote.

 

[in_the_top_one]

Tony Blair... has admitted that he took no regard to cultural or other issues of immigration... simply let them all in on the basis that it would boost the labour vote.

Link to quote?

 

[toms]

Spot on.

It's ridiculous. And so is the point that the Nazi's had the word socialist in their earlier name so they were socialists by any current definition. They had as much acquaintance with socialism as Bozzi does with reality.

They were anti Semitic and hated capitalism. What major political party can you think of today which fits this description?

 

[Feco]

You are as usual concentrating on one aspect . If you can name another person who has tried to take over Europe since Napoleon feel free. I voted for Blair 3 times. Maybe you can tell me where I said I disagreed with his policies? The fact he did things that we only find out about years afterwards is another matter.

By the very nature of a general election you are voting on hundreds of policies. Unless a party is set up for one aim (eg UKIP) , I find it very strange that all people in a party would agree with any policies. At a general election you vote for the party that you 60% agree with, or that you agree with on most major issues.

The laughable thing about the EU referendum is that, as far as I can remember, it is one of only four or five votes where it was as clear as possible what we were voting for.

I’m focusing on one subject whilst you once again try to change tack by ignoring the fact that you have likened the EU to Hitler.
I think you are confusing yourself regarding whatever point it is you are trying to make.

May I suggest that before you make such flippant comments again that you use one of the Ledger tours and visit the War Graves of the D-Day beaches, the Axis side as well as the Allies, or maybe Auschwitz and then see if you still feel that the EU resembles Hitlers Europe.

As for challenges, it was you not Toms I asked. Toms did at least suggest washing machines, you said nothing.

You have on a number of occasions said that you didn’t know what the outcome of leaving the EU would be, but tonight now state that this referendum was one of the only clear votes you had known. Which is it? and if the outcome was so clear why, with 170 odd days to go can you and all the leave side not be able tell me what the outcome is going to be.

Regarding manifestos, please clarify what you mean and I’ll be happy to oblige.
I know both my MP and MEP very well, visit Westminster regularly and make my views known.
I am not a member of a political party and never have been.
My views are the complete opposite of my MEP’s and if there is one consolation about this mess it’s the fact that she will loose her job April 1st. That said she is a very nice person, it’s not personal just business.

 

[toms]

Its policies are derived from the people of europe.

In particular, the elected members of the european parliament from regions within european nations, the heads of state of those european nations, and european civil service (the commission) proposed by the european council (elected heads of state) and voted for by the european parliament (elected MEPs). If the people of europe vote in fascist leaders as their heads of state, and also elect members of fascist parties to the european parliament, then the european union will be controlled by fascists. Under those circumstances, will you still be calling it a socialist movement? Your argument is baseless.

And which bit of this is in any way reminiscent of nazi totalitarianism? None.

You mean there are people who vote in eu elections? Thought ithat was just you vince and nick.

I simply argued that left wing socialism can lead to a form of fascism in leadership. I personally have never called the eu fascist. I simply said it is possible to have an extreme left socialist fascist and I stand by that

 

[toms]

I’m focusing on one subject whilst you once again try to change tack by ignoring the fact that you have likened the EU to Hitler.
I think you are confusing yourself regarding whatever point it is you are trying to make.

May I suggest that before you make such flippant comments again that you use one of the Ledger tours and visit the War Graves of the D-Day beaches, the Axis side as well as the Allies, or maybe Auschwitz and then see if you still feel that the EU resembles Hitlers Europe.

As for challenges, it was you not Toms I asked. Toms did at least suggest washing machines, you said nothing.

You have on a number of occasions said that you didn’t know what the outcome of leaving the EU would be, but tonight now state that this referendum was one of the only clear votes you have had known. Which is it? and if the outcome was so clear why, with 170 odd days to go can you and all the leave side tell me what the outcome is going to be.

Regarding manifestos, please clarify what you mean and I’ll be happy to oblige.
I know both my MP and MEP very well, visit Westminster regularly and make my views known.
I am not a member of a political party and never have been.
My views are the complete opposite of my MEP’s and if there is one consolation about this mess it’s the fact that she will loose her job April 1st. That said she is a very nice person, it’s not personal just business.

Feco things aren’t clear because we have a remainer front bench running it When they don’t believe in it.

 

[Feco]

You kept challenging Toms to name the British owned products we will export. However you seem to have missed the challenge to name policies in a general election, or even in EU MEP elections where something such as freedom of movement or the policies of the next EU treaty were part of a UK political party's manifesto, for UK citizens to have any say on the matter.

Going back to Tony Blair, it is only in recent times that he has admitted that he took
no regard to cultural or other issues of immigration, but simply worked on the understanding that as most migrants would vote labour, he simply let them all in on the basis that it would boost the labour vote.

I think you are mistaken again, unless they are UK citizens they couldn’t vote in a UK General Election. Not even Tony could bend that rule.
Of course if they were British Citizens they weren’t migrants.

 

[in_the_top_one]

However you seem to have missed the challenge to name policies in a general election, or even in EU MEP elections where something such as freedom of movement or the policies of the next EU treaty were part of a UK political party's manifesto, for UK citizens to have any say on the matter.

Once again, the eu has been fundamental to many policies ever since before we joined and have featured in every general election manifesto for all the parties. These have been discussed ad infinitum but perhaps you weren't listening.

It is very easy to find at least some of this information. For example, here are all the prime ministers speeches and manifesto pledges regarding the eu since the 1970s.
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/LLN-2016-0015
Happy reading.


But, of course, or leaders snuck it all in via the back door. You never had a chance to vote...