Calvin Plummer
Vital Football Legend
How exactly did you think that was possible unless we turned into North Korea lol
Millwall v Forest match thread
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How exactly did you think that was possible unless we turned into North Korea lol
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
Exactly.
Some people seem to think it's still 1918 and this country has a huge empire and is a huge player.
No one has full control of anything because to get what you want from other countries you need to compromise with them.
Sometimes what we 'get' is complicated and isn't immediately or obviously apparent.
It's funny how things fit your view too. Has their been a legal investigation into the spending with a decision? Did it have any influence? How much did the EU spend on saying we should stay in, who flew Obama over etc?
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
Feel free to present evidence of misspending by the Remain campaign rather than smearing baselessly and turning a blind eye to all the whistleblowing and other evidence of cheating by Cambridge Analytica and Aggregate IQ. Morally, I think you have a very questionable and embarrassing position. However, good luck in your search and I look forward to reading about it.
If we imagine for a brief moment that you're right about both sides overspending, do those two wrongs perfectly cancel each other out and give a legitimate result when the count was so close? Not in my opinion. Maybe you don't mind cheating so long as the result was the one you wanted? Another case of "to hell with democracy, we're
running with this now and balls to the dreadful consequences". That's not a democracy I want to live under.
In the rest of your post you are essentially asking whether advertising works. The answer is yes, yes it does.
If we imagine for a brief moment that you're right about both sides overspending, do those two wrongs perfectly cancel each other out and give a legitimate result when the count was so close? Not in my opinion. Maybe you don't mind cheating so long as the result was the one you wanted? Another case of "to hell with democracy, we're
running with this now and balls to the dreadful consequences". That's not a democracy I want to live under.
In the rest of your post you are essentially asking whether advertising works. The answer is yes, yes it does.
Calvin Plummer why the arrogant lol in your post which by the way is a bit strange. I think we have a bit more going for us than North Korea and i think we have a bit more going for us than the majority of the current membership of the EU who we finance. May be a bit quaint to have more faith in our politicians and the democracy that controls them that the men in Brussels but that is exactly how i feel.
Sniffer Dog
Vital Squad Member
Jock, it all started from my Lucas Perez comment, who could have imagined what it would turn into!
[QUOTE="in_the_top_one
In the rest of your post you are essentially asking whether advertising works. The answer is yes, yes it does.[/QUOTE]
So the Remain campaign spent nearly £17 million. The leave campaign may have spent £7.7 million. Advertising clearly only works if you are peddling a product that people want!
In the rest of your post you are essentially asking whether advertising works. The answer is yes, yes it does.[/QUOTE]
So the Remain campaign spent nearly £17 million. The leave campaign may have spent £7.7 million. Advertising clearly only works if you are peddling a product that people want!
Bremen Tree
Vital 1st Team Regular
How old are you jbcasta?
Well at least the money that won't be used to "finance" the EU will be ploughed back into the NHS. Oh wait a minute......
Faith in the politicians?
Bremen Tree
Vital 1st Team Regular
So the Remain campaign spent nearly £17 million. The leave campaign may have spent £7.7 million. Advertising clearly only works if you are peddling a product that people want![/QUOTE]
What is the source of your figures? Or are you doing the usual and maiking it up as you go along ?
What is the source of your figures? Or are you doing the usual and maiking it up as you go along ?[/QUOTE]
The Remain and Leave campaigns were allowed to spend £7m. I have no facts on that, but I assume they both spent their allocation if they had any sense . The government spent £9.3 million on their leave booklet, so the figures can't be too far out.
Bremen Tree
Vital 1st Team Regular
As I thought you are just making it up as you go along.
So what is made up? The Government cost of their Remain booklet was estimated to be £9.3m blowing the rest of the costs out of the water. If the final cost was different let me know.Did the Remain people not manage to raise their £7m to spend? Rather easy to just say things are made up, when there are more facts than in your post.
Calvin Plummer
Vital Football Legend
Because your dream is impossible, it's irrelevant what we have going for us. We live in a world that's interconnected economically, socially, geographically etc. Power doesn't reside in any one political institution, no matter how powerful a nation. No nation is capable of making decisions in isolation and no parliament makes decisions in isolation - nor do they hold all the power you fantasise that they do.
Haven't you noticed that despite pursuing a hard Brexit we are still making compromises?
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
That's irrelevant because it was done before the official referendum period which began on 15th April The expense limits apply to that period only.
There was little to stop Brexiteers doing their own marketing leaflet prior to the ORP if they could raise the cash. The leaflet was in response to a poll showing 85% of people wanted more information.
The leaflet was designed to set out the Government's recommendation to the people. The official Government position was that it supported a remain vote. It is absolutely legal, right and proper for the government to hold a partisan position and it is perfectly legal and proper for them to set out their arguments in such a leaflet.
If you counted up all Brexit spending, Including the right wing media, Aaron Banks etc going back for a long time then I have no doubt that they will have breached the £9m the leaflet cost several times over. But that spending also does not count if it happened before 15th April. Brexiteers spending goes back decades.
The problem comes after the ORP where you absolutely cannot spend more than £7m. It sounds very much like Vote Leave breached that, which is illegal.
The £9m government leaflet that you personally don't like but was outside of the ORP was totally legal. You not liking it does not mean it suddenly compares unfavourable with illegal VL spending. I personally hated some of the utter crap put through my door by VL, but they were perfectly within their rights to spend as much as they wanted on it before the ORP.
I agree with every word you say, your argument is 100% rock solid. Can i just ask you a few questions and i hope that for once the exchange does not become abusive. I watched the AM show on Sunday and saw an elected member of our current government grilled live on national television by an aggressive competent interviewer on a highly sensitive subject. It must have been an unpleasant experience but he had to do it because in our democracy he had no choice. When was the last time you had the chance to see the same thing done to an official representing the EU? I voted to leave because it would give us a greater level of control in governing our country. It is not perfect, far from it and i well know that, but its my country (and yours) and i don't particularly like the way it is heading.
You haven't read what I put. Nowhere have I said the £9.3m spent by the government was illegal. Whether they were moral in sending out a biased and factually incorrect pamphlet is another matter.The argument is that the £700k the leave campaign may have spent was what won the vote, as advertising is so effective. The government spent £9.3m, but don't seem to have converted many people. I am still baffled by how the Social Media only affected the demographic who supposedly voted leave (supposedly the over 50's). I am fairly computer literate, but only use Facebook to see what pictures my kids post. Find it difficult to believe us over 60's were brainwashed by twitter, Facebook and whatever other social media there is that I've never heard of!
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
Don't play the victim jbacasta.
I not entirely sure how you would expect to see such an interview. What language would it be in and on which countries TV network? How do you even know that such interviews aren't taking place, and you just aren't watching them or the ratings are so low as to make them not worth televising?
I also remind you that we have a PM who does everything she can to avoid such interviews. She almost never does them, ducked out of every head to head debate at the election and is kept from serious interviews because she can't do them.
As for the EU, I have so little faith in the Tories that I would choose Germano-French oversight every time. The EU isn't perfect but in terms of prevention of tyranny, you have 27 democracies all with their own interests to prevent any kind of tyranny or catastrophe happening.
Anyone who has ever read about Tory fundraisers or the Cameron/Osborn black tie dinners will know just how much this government is for sale to the highest bidders.
Personally i have more faith in the Germans doing the right thing for me as a byproduct of doing the right thing for themselves than of the Tory party every helping my family.
But the real answer to all of this is embarrassingly obvious. A successful future human race will be one in which countries have come together, forgotten differences and worked as a planet- not one in which pathetic individual tribes have isolated themselves
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
Not sure about the social media thing, but the standard printed media no doubt had a huge effect.
It's irrelevant anyway- illegal spending is illegal spending. You can never prove it didnt sway the vote so the only way to close off from that charge is to not spend illegally.
Calling the leaflet 'biased' misrepresents what it was. It wasn't meant to be balanced and the governor's position was never meant to be impartial. The government isn't the BBC and you can't claim foul when they pick a side because they have every right to.
The leaflet set out the official government position on Brexit. As it was the official government position it was paid for from government funds. If you wanted the government to support your side then your side of the argument needed to not be a complete and utter disaster for our country
