Surely you get this. Simply put Id rather maintain the miniscule influence I may have in a voting booth here in the UK than have it further watered down by an Eu protectorate passing all laws that we have to abide by. Goodness me people have fought against tryanny and prejudice to get the vote and maintain a free democracy. I find it really strange that as a historian you cannot understand this basic respect for our history. And its even stranger because, my family came to this country in the 20th century and people like you have been teaching us this and the necessity to uphold British values and history. We integrated and abided and considered this to be vital.
Millwall v Forest match thread
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Surely you get this. Simply put Id rather maintain the miniscule influence I may have in a voting booth here in the UK than have it further watered down by an Eu protectorate passing all laws that we have to abide by. Goodness me people have fought against tryanny and prejudice to get the vote and maintain a free democracy. I find it really strange that as a historian you cannot understand this basic respect for our history. And its even stranger because, my family came to this country in the 20th century and people like you have been teaching us this and the necessity to uphold British values and history. We integrated and abided and considered this to be vital.
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
I haven't taught you this because British people have not really fought for their democracy in the way you are suggesting.
We had a civil war, but that was to establish the principle of Noble rule being Sovereign over Monarchial rule. It had nothing to do with the 'commons' because the commons were never intended to be allowed to participate. The sovereignty was not of the people but of a wider group of the privileged.
The widening of the franchise was never a result of any fighting (maybe a bit of rioting) or any kind of brave crusade; it was the result of slow, conservative, minimum and incremental reform, designed to maintain the hegemony of the ruling class while acknowledging that maintaining 'hard' power forever wasn't a goer. They looked at the revolutions of 1793 and 1848 and made the concessions that needed to be made to prevent that happening here.
We fought for freedom on the continent in WWII, including our own freedom. That has nothing to do with the development of democracy here. The very fact that our friend Jacob Rees Mogg was able to walk into parliament in a safe Tory constituency and now hold the PM to ransom in the space of just a handful of years tells you everything you need to know about where sovereignty still largely lies. Neither you nor I would have been able to build such influence so fast, yet we have seen it time and time again- Cameron and Osborn to start with.
The consistent key to democracy is to have layer after layer of checks and balances. I have no doubt that Donald Trump would so away with free elections in America if the opportunity arose. Thankfully there are some checks on that, but already we see in America that there are far too few checks on the president's power; he could end the world or declare war if he wants to and can shift decades of policy in a tweet. If he wants to break the law and then pardon himself then there isn't really much that can stop him and that is dangerous.
The EU was an additional layer of checks and balances for us. I have voted in EU elections so I would hardly call it undemocratic. Our declining influence is as much to do with Cameron shifting the Tories out of the EPP to satisfy the likes of Rees Mogg, as well as our people's tendency to elect UKIP representatives who take EU expenses without doing any work.
Without the EU as a check and balance, not only our democracy but our so called sovereignty is wide open. It may have escaped you but we have no constitution. There are NO real legal checks and balances.
Adolf Hitler had to do deals with the Catholics to change the Weimar Constitution to become a dictator but no such deal would be necessary now. Were the Tories (or a future Corbyn) to hold a vote on the abolition of parliament and have the votes to win it, there is little to stop them. The Queen's constitutional power exists in precedent but precedent is useless for actions for which there is no precedent. I cannot think of a single other genuine democracy that is so wide open to circumvention and attack; it is embarrassing that everything we value could be so easily swept away and now with the EU gone the last check on that goes with it.
Of course I'm not anticipating an abolition of democracy from either party, and there is no complete certainty the EU could stop it anyway (look at Poland, although even there they have been unable to do an outright coup).
However, were the Tories (and it will be them for certain this time) to decide to scrap all workers rights, there is little stopping them. They wouldn't even need to be honest about it in an electoon- the right wing media, social media and russian bots can easily convince a large enough portion of turkeys to vote for Christmas. We could end up in a Chinese style labour market and there are endless Tories (including JRM by the way) who want that. On the basis of complete lies and bogus promises (that don't even need to come from the Tories themselves as the media can do it for them), fundamental rights and an ability to have any kind of life could be swept away. The EU is a check on that kind of abuse of power.
Equally, your enemy Mr Corbyn could be elected on a wave of youthful populism and there is now nothing to stop him nationalising rail, power and water. I assume since you are so against it this could have some kind of financial reverberation for someone such as yourself- the EU is a check and balance on a single parliament government doing something so monumental and irreversible on the basis of just a thin one parliament mandate.
But you have voted that away.
Now Toms, I enjoy debating with you and respect your arguments but this won't remain a respectful debate for very long if you insist on making reference to my job constantly and linking my opinions on here to what I teach. I'm finding the constant references downright offensive and you'll start getting from me what you get from Mao if you choose to persist in doing so because I am absolutely fucking fed up of it. Clear?
We have the House of Lords as a check and balance and I also have faith in the British people to do the right thing. They will vote in the best party at the time and if they are not sure they will make damn sure we have a coalition preventing some of the extreme measures you have suggested. We don't need an EU parliament or constitution to do this for us. Basically I don't subscribe to the idea that we need the a legislation comfort blanket from the EU. Who on earth are they to be the supreme arbiters.
Regarding your last sentence, no problem. I didn't think it affected you so much to be fair, particularly since you have quoted a number of historical facts in this thread. If you are capable of stooping to Mao's level that's your issue, not mine. Rather like you, you know I'm very capable of defending myself
Regarding your last sentence, no problem. I didn't think it affected you so much to be fair, particularly since you have quoted a number of historical facts in this thread. If you are capable of stooping to Mao's level that's your issue, not mine. Rather like you, you know I'm very capable of defending myself
We have had this argument before. I grew up with no tv, telephone etc and was useless at French at school because I couldn't imagine that I would ever go abroad, so I wasn't interested. my dad worked in a warehouse and the family had a Lambretta scooter for transport. In 1976 I spent 6 months trying to get my first job because all the teachers were being made redundant in the year I qualified as a teacher, so I had to get an office job and start again. My parents both died before I left school. Sometimes I just can't believe how privileged I was!
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
Blah blah blah.
As if any of those things actually matter when everyone was in the same boat?
When you were born the average owner/CEO of a company earned 7 times the lowest paid worker. Now it's closer to 200 times.
You may have been unlucky as a teacher personally but plenty more weren't and the fact is you could own a house working full time on the till at WH Smith.
Sorry about your parents but that's personal- nothing to do with this discussion and I've known kids in the same boat today.
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
The House of Lords has two years delaying power only.
Given that any such breaches of rights would happen in the first year of a parliament the Lord's are going to be able to do absolutely nothing.
Nobody said the EU are supreme arbiters, just an extra check and balance that is outside the current system and so immune to local dog whistles or populism.
Faith in the British people?
Oh dear.
Not having a go at the British people in particular, but having faith in any people in general is on a hiding to nothing. You'd be better off having faith in God, at least he'll not let you down because he doesn't exist
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
Right and wrong is a point of view.
From my point of view (and Cameron's), the majority the British people handed to the Conservatives in 2010 was the most disastrous decision for generations
Old Red Fart
Vital Champions League
This thread has lost track a bit so I feel O.K. adding a bit more fuel to the fire. And being older than any of you lot I've had a bit more experience of life. One thing that's obvious is that each generation appears to be better off in most respects than the previous one but not necessarily happier. No point in arguing the toss, it's obvious. And as a family man with children, grand children and great grand children I know what I'm talking about. Some of you still have to learn.
You can debate Brexit all day long but eventually the U.K. will come out of it and in years to come will be better off than you are now. That's a fact of life. Nothing new about it. And politics will have very little to do with it.
Will you be happier ? No chance.
You can debate Brexit all day long but eventually the U.K. will come out of it and in years to come will be better off than you are now. That's a fact of life. Nothing new about it. And politics will have very little to do with it.
Will you be happier ? No chance.
No need to dismiss Lienking's comment in such an abrasive manner.He makes the point that the vast majority didn't have cars, TVs ,phones and go abroad etc which if you take all these bills into account ,that many ,including myself,nowadays would deem as a neccessity, you would be able to save a house deposit possibly in 5 years.Hence they may have been able to get a mortgage easier then but they did not have such a rich lifestyle at that time. Comparing generations is a difficult one because there will be plusses and minuses and a lot of the time life is down to luck such as interest rates at the time you start to look at houses.It is down to things such as living longer now,which surely is a plus, but on the downside the pension age is gonna be higher. I can see your point Pope,I have teenage children and know its gonna be tough getting on the housing ladder, but other generations had a different lifestyle in their time.
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
It's just not relevant ingy.
What appreciable difference to quality of life does having a phone make? Or a TV?
I grew up without the internet as a kid and suffered no inconvenience from it because no one had it.
150 years ago teenagers would be working 14-16 hour days in hot factories with no health and safety for starvation pay. THATS a substantive difference.
That's what makes me laugh when I hear boomers talk about how they had it bad because dad only had a shitty Cortina or whatever
What appreciable difference to quality of life does having a phone make? Or a TV?
I grew up without the internet as a kid and suffered no inconvenience from it because no one had it.
150 years ago teenagers would be working 14-16 hour days in hot factories with no health and safety for starvation pay. THATS a substantive difference.
That's what makes me laugh when I hear boomers talk about how they had it bad because dad only had a shitty Cortina or whatever
You may not have suffered any inconvenience but , for example,being able to travel the world and having a car to travel around were luxuries then which are deemed as neccessities now.
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
Why?
Since when has being able to travel on a whim been essential? Where I come from foreign travel isn't extraordinary but its still an extravagance. My children have never been abroad and I've been out of the country for my job far more than I ever have personally. I only left the continent for the first time last year with work.
Having a car is not a necessity either. It's more important now than it used to be of course because public transport is so expensive and a rail season ticket probably costs 200 times more comparatively than it did not he 60's (that's not a fact, it's a guess)
When I say neccessity I mean it in regards what people deem as one.A high amount of the population will have a holiday abroad once a year and most will have at least one car per household because they can afford to do so or want one.
Feco
Vital Squad Member
It was an open question to any 'leaver' really, your view probably represents most thoughts anyway.
Your thoughts are worthy, thing I s though, nobody, including the politicians knew what the deal would be if it was a leave vote, because they had never discussed it with Brussels.
We knew exactly what we would get if we stayed in, more of the same. I don't believe anyone from either side could say the EU works well and doesn't need serious reform, it clearly does, but at least we knew what we had, and the UK had influence.
The leave campaign was based on a wish list compiled by Johnson, Gove, Fox, Farage etc, nothing had been agreed with the EU on a future relationship if we left, there was no hard basis to believe anything they said could be achieved. There still isn't.
I'm a firm believer that in a democracy, if you don't like something you work and campaign to change improve things, you don't leave without a comprehensive strategy on the way forward.
Well we just left without any plan or strategy, and nearly 2 years down the line we still don't have one.
I'm sure in your life you have bought houses and cars etc, major personal decisions for you and your family, and I bet not once did you sign to secure the deal, then tried to negotiate the price or terms and conditions.
That's exactly what Cameron did for this country......then ran off when his gamble failed.
The truth is after so many years, we are an intergrated part of the EU in every aspect, leaving and being a successful standalone country is not an option, certainly not in my lifetime unfortunately, and I ain't that old!!
The leave campaign was based on 40 years experience of being in the EU as far as I was concerned, and nothing to do with what was said or negotiations. As far as I was aware we were getting our ducks in order, then giving them two years notice that we were leaving. It's only because leaving is being carried out by a remainer that we have got into this negotiating mess.
It's interesting that some bloke says it needs re-running because it was illegal that someone may have spent £700k of their own money illegally, when the government cynically spent nearly £10m of OUR money on a remain booklet shortly before the counting period started.
It's interesting that some bloke says it needs re-running because it was illegal that someone may have spent £700k of their own money illegally, when the government cynically spent nearly £10m of OUR money on a remain booklet shortly before the counting period started.
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Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
Utterly ridiculous. The Minister for Brexit who has fucked up these negotiations so badly is David Davis, an arch Brexiteer. His entire department are Brexiteers. The negotiations are tits up because they have taken all their red lines from Boris Johnson and the European Research Group, led by Jacob Rees Mogg. They promised us that Britain held all of the cards and that the EU would be flocking to make the easiest deal ever with us. Of course, Britain holds none of the cards and has had to concede on more or less every single point. We have taken our bowl to Barnier, demanded Caviar, been ladled some gruel and then thanked him profusely.
Teresa May couldn't run a bath but she is hardly a remainer either- she was even more lukewarm on remain in the campaign than Corbyn was.
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
Priceless.
When are these excuses going to be laid to rest? Would it be going much better if Boris was pm?
Democratic votes and even advisory referendums have rules for good reason. The Leave campaign clearly broke these rules. It's unacceptable. How can that be defended? So much for exiting the eu to become more democratic.
