Gorbachev | Page 11 | Vital Football

Gorbachev

TRUE BELIEVER said:
As far as NI is concerned, mistakes were made on both sides and are now being addressed, how that will turn out we will have to wait and see. Bare faced lies, I'm not so sure, poor judgement and serious mistakes maybe.
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Sorry TB, but this is a clear one for me. In response to umpteen challenges, neither Johnson, Frost, Raab, nor anyone else could ever describe how the NI issue was ever going to be resolved if the Good Friday agreement was going to stay in place.



With GF in place, NI can trade with the republic as if they were in the EU. However, this of course means that there would need to be a virtual border in the Irish Sea ,,, otherwise, GB would also effectively be able to trade with the EU in the same way also.

Johnson lied about it. No other word will suffice.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
In fairness it would appear that regardless of the Russian superiority and tanks the Ukranian army equipped with the anti tank weapons provided by the UK and the support and training we gave them is paying off and has stalled their drive for Kyiv, which Putin had planned to take in the initial invasion.

Maybe BJ was right about tanks being outmoded.
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Effective, but at risk to the user though. However if that’s all they’ve got then an effective weapon. Tanks are a bit like battleships. Once king of the oceans but since submarine technology has advanced they’re now very vulnerable if they don’t have appropriate support.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
I agree that sanctions may be harsher, however my point is a simple one, we made a quick unilateral decision to sanctions they are still debating their follow up.

As far as SWIFT goes, most commentators and experts are convinced that this is the only thing that will effectively hurt Putin and yet, as you point out , some European countries are more concerned about how restricting Russia's access will affect themselves rather than biting the bullet and bringing him to heel quicker.
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Apparently Italy managed to get luxury goods to be exempt from the sanctions
Belgium got diamonds exempted

FFS, what has happened to the world
 
moonay said:
Sorry TB, but this is a clear one for me. In response to umpteen challenges, neither Johnson, Frost, Raab, nor anyone else could ever describe how the NI issue was ever going to be resolved if the Good Friday agreement was going to stay in place.



With GF in place, NI can trade with the republic as if they were in the EU. However, this of course means that there would need to be a virtual border in the Irish Sea ,,, otherwise, GB would also effectively be able to trade with the EU in the same way also.

Johnson lied about it. No other word will suffice.
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Your clarity on the matter is a matter for yourself, in my opinion there are many grey areas in the NI agreement and both sides failed to take into consideration the majority views of the NI people themselves. Both sides were forced into making hasty decisions to satisfy timetables set to appease their political masters and gain support from voters. I wonder if given more time a satisfactory agreement could have been found that the people of NI could get behind and support instead of hastily agreeing between themselves a set of regulations that only one side in NI would ever agree to.

I will leave the last word to you as I know from experience that I will be unable to change your views on this.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
Your clarity on the matter is a matter for yourself, in my opinion there are many grey areas in the NI agreement and both sides failed to take into consideration the majority views of the NI people themselves. Both sides were forced into making hasty decisions to satisfy timetables set to appease their political masters and gain support from voters. I wonder if given more time a satisfactory agreement could have been found that the people of NI could get behind and support instead of hastily agreeing between themselves a set of regulations that only one side in NI would ever agree to.

I will leave the last word to you as I know from experience that I will be unable to change your views on this.
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That's a touch unfair. It's not a case of me wanting the last word .... it's just that you don't seem to see this as a black and white issue, when it clearly is.

NI can't trade seamlessly with both the Republic (as if they were in the EU) and GB (as part of the UK). That's always been quite clear to everyone. It's not a case of opinion. The PM and others lied. They didn't mislead, they lied.

Feel free to now have the last word. I simply wanted to clarify that point.
 
moonay said:
That's a touch unfair. It's not a case of me wanting the last word .... it's just that you don't seem to see this as a black and white issue, when it clearly is.

NI can't trade seamlessly with both the Republic (as if they were in the EU) and GB (as part of the UK). That's always been quite clear to everyone. It's not a case of opinion. The PM and others lied. They didn't mislead, they lied.

Feel free to now have the last word. I simply wanted to clarify that point.
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No thanks.
 
moonay said:
Believe it or not, I kind of get this ......... but I would counter, "at what cost?".

I had to laugh when the MP for Dover was telling parliament that Brexit red tape was creating lots of (customs) jobs in the town ......... spin at it's very best.
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Staying in had costs and risks too.

Which way you voted was based on which set of risks you preferred. I think most folks still happy with how they voted.

It's just the same arguments repeating with no one is changing their mind. It's a waste of everyone's time.
 
Made in Wigan said:
He was right on the first part, wrong on the second. Tanks are conventional weapons and technology means they are now largely ineffective. They’ve gone from the hunter to the prey. Drones, attack helicopters, fighter jets, precision guided ballistic missiles means they are very vulnerable, particularly given their size and lack of mobility. Of course Ukraine doesn’t have these weapons but Britain does so we don’t need tanks to counter tanks. If NATO was fighting in Ukraine the Russian army would be annihilated as they aren’t well equipped and they would not have invaded.

In relation to armed conflict returning to Europe he was wrong. As was everyone else. Seems Adolf Putin took everyone by surprise. Still, the fact they can’t enter the Eurovision contest should mean they’ll be backing down imminently as that’s one sanction too far.
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Imagine if Ukraine had been given the state of the art military helicopters the Taliban were left with.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
Staying in had costs and risks too.

Which way you voted was based on which set of risks you preferred. I think most folks still happy with how they voted.

It's just the same arguments repeating with no one is changing their mind.
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So you don't see the fact that more recruitment was required to handle the new paperwork/bureaucracy as a result of leaving doesn't completely contradict - and show to be untruthful - the stance of the (lying) Leave campaign that no more paperwork/bureaucracy would be created?

Sorry, but with such a refusal to accept basic facts, I've really no come back.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
Staying in had costs and risks too.

Which way you voted was based on which set of risks you preferred. I think most folks still happy with how they voted.

It's just the same arguments repeating with no one is changing their mind. It's a waste of everyone's time.
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Name some of "the costs and risks" of staying in please ?
Does that include the cost and availability of goods on our supermarket shelves ?
 
Fuck me ...the usual suspects hijacking a thread about Gorbachev / Ukraine crisis to rant about brexit....
I know, thousands possibly at risk of being bombed / maimed/ homeless & refugee status yet the usual suspects wanna spout off about how along brexit is, how conned we were & how it ain't working...well guess what, why not take the moaning over to off topic & the brexit thread on there where u can carry on. I've no doubt this thread will be asked to be put in off topic & who can blame then when it's the usual claptrap from the usual posters who will always have the last word regardless.
 
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