Gorbachev

[king_dezeeuw06]

Oh, and I think the word (or rather, two words) you're looking for is "a lie".

Pointing out the UK government failings doesn't make me want more levels of government it reinforces my position the less the better. Removing any layer is a positive thing, i'd love to remove loads more.

 

[moonay]

Pointing out the UK government failings doesn't make me want more levels of government it reinforces my position the less the better. .

As it appears you acknowledge that they lied about NI, does it not make you wonder what else they lied about? Sunlit uplands ... nothing but upside ... etc etc.

Granted, there may be a level of the power structure removed, but how did that help democracy when Johnson and Rees-Mogg prorogued parliament illegally the other year?

It's certainly didn't give us voters any more say in how we're governed.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Fair point EV ... but we don't know that they are.

If however you mean Germany and Italy re SWIFT, then I'm sure they could hold the mirror back to the UK on the subject of sanctions on all Putin's allies in London, as well as all Russian banks (including Sberbank) holding his money.

We're not squeaky clean.

TBH I am happy that Brexit happened as at least we have been able to introduce the sanctions, whether they are strong enough or not, whereas the 27 nations in the EU are still arguing over their response and have still not signed off their response as I type this.

Sometimes it is better to be alone than in a group.

 

[ExiledViking]

As it appears you acknowledge that they lied about NI, does it not make you wonder what else they lied about? Sunlit uplands ... nothing but upside ... etc etc.

Granted, there may be a level of the power structure removed, but how did that help democracy when Johnson and Rees-Mogg prorogued parliament illegally the other year?

It's certainly didn't give us voters any more say in how we're governed.

I see this trope a lot from remainers
I don't think very many of those who voted Leave thought benefits of Brexit would be instantaneous, I certainly didn't.
It will take decades, and for me, that's worth waiting for

 

[moonay]

TBH I am happy that Brexit happened as at least we have been able to introduce the sanctions, whether they are strong enough or not, whereas the 27 nations in the EU are still arguing over their response and have still not signed off their response as I type this.

Sometimes it is better to be alone than in a group.

The EU have already imposed far stricter sanctions in some areas the we have TB. The main issue they're pissing about over is kicking Russia out of SWIFT .... reason being (if I've read it right) that they'll (Germany & Italy) more than likely have to forego the possibility of ever receiving payment of existing debts from Russia.

With regard to other stuff - they're ahead of us ......as are the US.

 

[moonay]

I see this trope a lot from remainers
I don't think very many of those who voted Leave thought benefits of Brexit would be instantaneous, I certainly didn't.
It will take decades, and for me, that's worth waiting for

Fair enough EV ... maybe you weren't taken in by the sales pitch, and maybe you're prepared to wait.

Neither of those points gets around the fact/probability/possibility that
a) some people were taken in, and
b) some people likely expected results much sooner.

I remember being told that everyone knew exactly they were voting for ...... maybe not it seems. Certainly Cornish fishermen didn't.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

The EU have already imposed far stricter sanctions in some areas the we have TB. The main issue they're pissing about over is kicking Russia out of SWIFT .... reason being (if I've read it right) that they'll (Germany & Italy) more than likely have to forego the possibility of ever receiving payment of existing debts from Russia.

With regard to other stuff - they're ahead of us ......as are the US.

I agree that sanctions may be harsher, however my point is a simple one, we made a quick unilateral decision to sanctions they are still debating their follow up.

As far as SWIFT goes, most commentators and experts are convinced that this is the only thing that will effectively hurt Putin and yet, as you point out , some European countries are more concerned about how restricting Russia's access will affect themselves rather than biting the bullet and bringing him to heel quicker.

 

[ExiledViking]

Fair enough EV ... maybe you weren't taken in by the sales pitch, and maybe you're prepared to wait.

Neither of those points gets around the fact/probability/possibility that
a) some people were taken in, and
b) some people likely expected results much sooner.

I remember being told that everyone knew exactly they were voting for ...... maybe not it seems. Certainly Cornish fishermen didn't.

Isn't every single election effectively a "sales pitch"?
Very few PM's / President's deliver half of what they promise.

 

[moonay]

Isn't every single election effectively a "sales pitch"?
Very few PM's / President's deliver half of what they promise.

Agreed ... which beggars belief why anyone would have believed what was being sold to them by the Leave campaign.

I find it amazing that the last few years could have looked so totally different if Johnson had chosen to submit the "other column".

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

As it appears you acknowledge that they lied about NI, does it not make you wonder what else they lied about? Sunlit uplands ... nothing but upside ... etc etc.

Granted, there may be a level of the power structure removed, but how did that help democracy when Johnson and Rees-Mogg prorogued parliament illegally the other year?

It's certainly didn't give us voters any more say in how we're governed.

You keep saying the UK government isn't any good but it doesn't make me want another layer of government above it. I trust the EU politicans as much as i trust the UK government - not at all. At least there is one less set to worry about - the less government the better.

 

[ExiledViking]

Agreed ... which beggars belief why anyone would have believed what was being sold to them by the Leave campaign.

I find it amazing that the last few years could have looked so totally different if Johnson had chosen to submit the "other column".

To be fair, the Leave campaign did very little to persuade people, as it was a straight choice question.
A lot of people were fed up with the EU (probably more than most remainers care to admit).

What annoys me the most is the constant childish bitterness, sadly, remainers really haven't covered themselves in glory with that...

 

[moonay]

You keep saying the UK government isn't any good but it doesn't make me want another layer of government above it. The less the better.

???
Where have I said that the UK government "isn't any good"?

AS it happens, I don't think this lot are in most instances. I think that most of them (with a couple of exceptions) are a bunch of pocket-lining, incompetent liars.

What will really worriy me about them though is when they start to strip away the rights enabled for us through the EU ...especially those labelled "human" ones.

 

[moonay]

To be fair, the Leave campaign did very little to persuade people, as it was a straight choice question.
A lot of people were fed up with the EU (probably more than most remainers care to admit).

What annoys me the most is the constant childish bitterness, sadly, remainers really haven't covered themselves in glory with that...

I can't agree re the Leave campaign EV. They were telling people what rhe result of their vote was going to mean to them ... and as we've seen, some of it was lies.

Admittedly, on the other side, it could be said that there was "Project Fear", but we have to be honest .....some (most?) of that has now proven to be true.

As for the childish bitterness ...
a) I don't see "remainers" having a silly name for "leavers"
b) I don't see a problem in people saying "we told you so"
c) I believe politicians should be held to account for what they said/promised.

On the NI issue alone, the PM (and others) told bare faced lies.

 

[ExiledViking]

I can't agree re the Leave campaign EV. They were telling people what rhe result of their vote was going to mean to them ... and as we've seen, some of it was lies.

Admittedly, on the other side, it could be said that there was "Project Fear", but we have to be honest .....some (most?) of that has now proven to be true.

As for the childish bitterness ...
a) I don't see "remainers" having a silly name for "leavers"
b) I don't see a problem in people saying "we told you so"
c) I believe politicians should be held to account for what they said/promised.

On the NI issue alone, the PM (and others) told bare faced lies.

Oh really... Are you sure?
I've seen "GAMMONS" and "LITTLE ENGLANDERS" being thrown about on a regular basis by remainers.

The "we told you so" thing is fair enough, but please remember how old you are when you do...

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

???
Where have I said that the UK government "isn't any good"?

AS it happens, I don't think this lot are in most instances. I think that most of them (with a couple of exceptions) are a bunch of pocket-lining, incompetent liars.

What will really worriy me about them though is when they start to strip away the rights enabled for us through the EU ...especially those labelled "human" ones.

I don't trust the UK government about what they might do in the future, but i also had that same fears about the EU government i also didn't like what they directly told us they were going to do in the state of the union addresses.

Both levels of governments are terrible, now i'm only worried about 1 of them and if it came to it, it's much easier pushing back against 1 layer of government than 2.

 

[moonay]

Oh really... Are you sure?
I've seen "GAMMONS" and "LITTLE ENGLANDERS" being thrown about on a regular basis by remainers.

(Another) Fair point ... not by me, but still fair.

I don't get the age reference.

 

[moonay]

Both are terrible, now i'm only worried about 1 of them and if it came to it, it's much easier pushing back against 1 layer of government than 2.

Believe it or not, I kind of get this ......... but I would counter, "at what cost?".

I had to laugh when the MP for Dover was telling parliament that Brexit red tape was creating lots of (customs) jobs in the town ......... spin at it's very best.

 

[Made in Wigan]

"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," said Boris Johnson last November, as he mocked the idea of armed conflict returning to Europe. https://t.co/81uUyOcSDJ

He was right on the first part, wrong on the second. Tanks are conventional weapons and technology means they are now largely ineffective. They’ve gone from the hunter to the prey. Drones, attack helicopters, fighter jets, precision guided ballistic missiles means they are very vulnerable, particularly given their size and lack of mobility. Of course Ukraine doesn’t have these weapons but Britain does so we don’t need tanks to counter tanks. If NATO was fighting in Ukraine the Russian army would be annihilated as they aren’t well equipped and they would not have invaded.

In relation to armed conflict returning to Europe he was wrong. As was everyone else. Seems Adolf Putin took everyone by surprise. Still, the fact they can’t enter the Eurovision contest should mean they’ll be backing down imminently as that’s one sanction too far.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

I can't agree re the Leave campaign EV. They were telling people what rhe result of their vote was going to mean to them ... and as we've seen, some of it was lies.

Admittedly, on the other side, it could be said that there was "Project Fear", but we have to be honest .....some (most?) of that has now proven to be true.

As for the childish bitterness ...
a) I don't see "remainers" having a silly name for "leavers"
b) I don't see a problem in people saying "we told you so"
c) I believe politicians should be held to account for what they said/promised.

On the NI issue alone, the PM (and others) told bare faced lies.

As has been said in regard to the way some of our players are judged, give it time.

It will take time to untangle ourselves from the regulations and rulings that have been placed upon us by so many years of membership of the EU, time and patience will see us progress.

As far as NI is concerned, mistakes were made on both sides and are now being addressed, how that will turn out we will have to wait and see. Bare faced lies, I'm not so sure, poor judgement and serious mistakes maybe.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

He was right on the first part, wrong on the second. Tanks are conventional weapons and technology means they are now largely ineffective. They’ve gone from the hunter to the prey. Drones, attack helicopters, fighter jets, precision guided ballistic missiles means they are very vulnerable, particularly given their size and lack of mobility. Of course Ukraine doesn’t have these weapons but Britain does so we don’t need tanks to counter tanks. If NATO was fighting in Ukraine the Russian army would be annihilated as they aren’t well equipped and they would not have invaded.

In relation to armed conflict returning to Europe he was wrong. As was everyone else. Seems Adolf Putin took everyone by surprise. Still, the fact they can’t enter the Eurovision contest should mean they’ll be backing down imminently as that’s one sanction too far.

In fairness it would appear that regardless of the Russian superiority and tanks the Ukranian army equipped with the anti tank weapons provided by the UK and the support and training we gave them is paying off and has stalled their drive for Kyiv, which Putin had planned to take in the initial invasion.

Maybe BJ was right about tanks being outmoded.