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Brexit Day!

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What were those promises? Or should I Google them?
Whatever the Remain said was enough to convince you wasn’t it!!

I did vote remain and I had my reasons, mainly to do with my ambivalence to the subject matter and no desire to change the status quo.
Pre-referendum I read the leaflet pushed through my letterbox telling me to vote to remain, I listened to many debates in the run-up, mostly with a similar narrative. It seemed logical and carried too many risks to do any other.

Post-referendum, the utter contemptuous display by the establishment irked me, the ensuing narrative regarding racist, thick, xenophobic, uneducated people had sinister motives designed to belittle and shame. It has been a prolonged campaign against the ‘common man’. I know many who voted leave none of whom I would label in such a narrow manner, and most have merit if you listen to them.
This was why I changed; it may be the dormant socialist in me that thinks shaming for a political view is wrong, though it seems de rigueur now that the left shower anyone with right wing views with dog’s abuse, so maybe not.

Either way, we are leaving, there will be no extension announced at the end of this month. I predict we will have a good deal with the EU and we will all be fine.
 
I did vote remain and I had my reasons, mainly to do with my ambivalence to the subject matter and no desire to change the status quo.
Pre-referendum I read the leaflet pushed through my letterbox telling me to vote to remain, I listened to many debates in the run-up, mostly with a similar narrative. It seemed logical and carried too many risks to do any other.

Post-referendum, the utter contemptuous display by the establishment irked me, the ensuing narrative regarding racist, thick, xenophobic, uneducated people had sinister motives designed to belittle and shame. It has been a prolonged campaign against the ‘common man’. I know many who voted leave none of whom I would label in such a narrow manner, and most have merit if you listen to them.
This was why I changed; it may be the dormant socialist in me that thinks shaming for a political view is wrong, though it seems de rigueur now that the left shower anyone with right wing views with dog’s abuse, so maybe not.

Either way, we are leaving, there will be no extension announced at the end of this month. I predict we will have a good deal with the EU and we will all be fine.
I think the extremes of both sides shower each other with dogs abuse without fear or favour and there is plenty enough blame to go around.

My experience has been the opposite of yours though. I live in an area that voted overwhelmingly to leave and the contempt with which Remainers are referred to is quite eye opening.

There has been so much abuse in both sides that it’s difficult to see how the nation will heal.

My heart told me that leave was the way to go, I am no fan of the EU. My head however told me that we would be in for a total shit show if we left and there was no way I could trust our politicians to get it right.

I voted remain on that basis and do not regret it for one second. I honestly believe that I have been proven right so far and I have absolutely no confidence that we will get any form of decent deal from either the EU or most of the rest of the world. I actually hope that you are right and I am wrong but I highly doubt it.
 
I did vote remain and I had my reasons, mainly to do with my ambivalence to the subject matter and no desire to change the status quo.
Pre-referendum I read the leaflet pushed through my letterbox telling me to vote to remain, I listened to many debates in the run-up, mostly with a similar narrative. It seemed logical and carried too many risks to do any other.

Post-referendum, the utter contemptuous display by the establishment irked me, the ensuing narrative regarding racist, thick, xenophobic, uneducated people had sinister motives designed to belittle and shame. It has been a prolonged campaign against the ‘common man’. I know many who voted leave none of whom I would label in such a narrow manner, and most have merit if you listen to them.
This was why I changed; it may be the dormant socialist in me that thinks shaming for a political view is wrong, though it seems de rigueur now that the left shower anyone with right wing views with dog’s abuse, so maybe not.

Either way, we are leaving, there will be no extension announced at the end of this month. I predict we will have a good deal with the EU and we will all be fine.

While I've previously said that an extension would be agreed, I now don't think it will. Instead, I think that the current transition period will end on the 31st Dec BUT a new one will take its place starting from next year. In the meantime, Bozo will be gone and although he will go down as the worst PM we've ever had he will be able to say he stuck to his Brexit promise (even though I don't believe he ever had the intention to)
 
While I've previously said that an extension would be agreed, I now don't think it will. Instead, I think that the current transition period will end on the 31st Dec BUT a new one will take its place starting from next year. In the meantime, Bozo will be gone and although he will go down as the worst PM we've ever had he will be able to say he stuck to his Brexit promise (even though I don't believe he ever had the intention to)

The Struwwelpeter-esque squatter at No.10 will still be there by the end of this most torrid of years.
 
While I've previously said that an extension would be agreed, I now don't think it will. Instead, I think that the current transition period will end on the 31st Dec BUT a new one will take its place starting from next year. In the meantime, Bozo will be gone and although he will go down as the worst PM we've ever had he will be able to say he stuck to his Brexit promise (even though I don't believe he ever had the intention to)
No chance on the first

Second one I wouldn't want to offer odds for
 
I did vote remain and I had my reasons, mainly to do with my ambivalence to the subject matter and no desire to change the status quo.
Pre-referendum I read the leaflet pushed through my letterbox telling me to vote to remain, I listened to many debates in the run-up, mostly with a similar narrative. It seemed logical and carried too many risks to do any other.

Post-referendum, the utter contemptuous display by the establishment irked me, the ensuing narrative regarding racist, thick, xenophobic, uneducated people had sinister motives designed to belittle and shame. It has been a prolonged campaign against the ‘common man’. I know many who voted leave none of whom I would label in such a narrow manner, and most have merit if you listen to them.
This was why I changed; it may be the dormant socialist in me that thinks shaming for a political view is wrong, though it seems de rigueur now that the left shower anyone with right wing views with dog’s abuse, so maybe not.

Either way, we are leaving, there will be no extension announced at the end of this month. I predict we will have a good deal with the EU and we will all be fine.

I agree with much of what you say, the first paragraph sums up the referendum very well for me.
We knew what Remain meant, we knew what the new negotiated deal was, and we had a outline of a plan moving forward.
That’s not to say I like the EU, much of what happens is contentious, and the recent leadership in Brussels carries a lot of blame for that.
I do however recognise that the EU is a fluid organisation.
As Lienking as often pointed out, the EU has changed radically throughout its existence, and will continue to do so.
At the time of the referendum I believed, and still do that having our own currency, border controls etc gave us a very unique and powerful position within the EU, and with sound U.K. leadership we could and should have been able to drive reform.

Any breakup is going to be difficult, the EU was always going to be intransigent, they have reasons to be that way. We left, why should we then be able to choose how we leave. We are, after all, a competitor now.

The problem is that the UK Government post the referendum never had a workable plan.
They were, and still are, entrenched on the rhetoric of borders, money law, (things we did control anyway) to actually outline the really problems. Integration of standards, the fact that our industrial bases are highly connected, energy, and many more.
Those issues aren’t very sexy, the content doesn’t make for good speeches, nor I suspect sell papers.
But the reality is those issues are significantly more important than just about anything else in this process.
Without a free trade, UK business will face additional costs and administration , both importing and exporting to our main supply/consumer area. And right now we don’t even know the extent of those costs and administration.

Brexit is done, the Government needs to stop treating this next stage like it isn’t.

We now need a deal that allows us to keep as much integration with the European market place as possible so that trade remains frictionless, and we can take advantage of the opportunities that a BRINO Deal would bring. That means accepting some degree of EU governance....CE, medical alignments etc.
What is being considered now won’t achieve any of that, and I’m fairly sure is not what many of those leave supporters voted for in 2016.

Unfortunately I don’t share your optimism that a deal will be done, certainly not by the end of the month.
I just don’t believe that this administration actually has the capability to negotiate one at any time. Nor do they have the desire to, it’s too politicised now.
They won’t want to be seen to back down.

I do agree that the U.K. will be okay, but without a deal it won’t be in my lifetime.
 
We were not haemorrhaging jobs before the virus!?! That's just been made up.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/mgsx/lms

You also above just said we were heading for a recession in January anyway and now your're saying that we haven't had one because Brexit hasn't been implemented.

You're like Ghandi's footwear here!

I didnt say that. I said we were heading for a recession and now we have one.

Haven't heard much from you re hong kong?
Presume the brexiteers are delighted at the prosoect of 3m new immigrants.
 
They were partly right.

There was a profound economic shock and the pound plummeted.

No, there was no recession; because article 50 was not triggered for nearly 9 months and companies decided to wait and see what the plans were

Despite that we still saw plenty of ominous signs plunging investments, loss of jobs, rising uncertainty. The economy was stalling, the virus has just made the issues that much worse.
 
I agree with much of what you say, the first paragraph sums up the referendum very well for me.
We knew what Remain meant, we knew what the new negotiated deal was, and we had a outline of a plan moving forward.
That’s not to say I like the EU, much of what happens is contentious, and the recent leadership in Brussels carries a lot of blame for that.
I do however recognise that the EU is a fluid organisation.
As Lienking as often pointed out, the EU has changed radically throughout its existence, and will continue to do so.
At the time of the referendum I believed, and still do that having our own currency, border controls etc gave us a very unique and powerful position within the EU, and with sound U.K. leadership we could and should have been able to drive reform.

Any breakup is going to be difficult, the EU was always going to be intransigent, they have reasons to be that way. We left, why should we then be able to choose how we leave. We are, after all, a competitor now.

The problem is that the UK Government post the referendum never had a workable plan.
They were, and still are, entrenched on the rhetoric of borders, money law, (things we did control anyway) to actually outline the really problems. Integration of standards, the fact that our industrial bases are highly connected, energy, and many more.
Those issues aren’t very sexy, the content doesn’t make for good speeches, nor I suspect sell papers.
But the reality is those issues are significantly more important than just about anything else in this process.
Without a free trade, UK business will face additional costs and administration , both importing and exporting to our main supply/consumer area. And right now we don’t even know the extent of those costs and administration.

Brexit is done, the Government needs to stop treating this next stage like it isn’t.

We now need a deal that allows us to keep as much integration with the European market place as possible so that trade remains frictionless, and we can take advantage of the opportunities that a BRINO Deal would bring. That means accepting some degree of EU governance....CE, medical alignments etc.
What is being considered now won’t achieve any of that, and I’m fairly sure is not what many of those leave supporters voted for in 2016.

Unfortunately I don’t share your optimism that a deal will be done, certainly not by the end of the month.
I just don’t believe that this administration actually has the capability to negotiate one at any time. Nor do they have the desire to, it’s too politicised now.
They won’t want to be seen to back down.

I do agree that the U.K. will be okay, but without a deal it won’t be in my lifetime.

Agree with most of that but lets not forget legacy costs. At a time when the planet surely to god needs more cooperation than ever before brexit has destroyed trust and goodwill.

Britain will be 'ok' as you say, given enough time to repair. Hardly a sunny fooking upland though.

Ultimately i no longer care as i am stepping up plans to leave. So long and thanks for all the fish
 
They said 500,000 jobs would be lost. Instead over a million new ones were created. Many of these are full time jobs (not zero hours). Sterling did drop, but they were all talking about unemployment. Whatever happens after BRINO turns into proper Brexit, Cameron, Hammond, IMF and BOE clearly got this one wrong.

A million new jobs eh? How are you getting that?
 
I didnt say that. I said we were heading for a recession and now we have one.

Haven't heard much from you re hong kong?
Presume the brexiteers are delighted at the prosoect of 3m new immigrants.

The Hong Kong hand of friendship is a great idea. Not sure why you think leaving the EU is a single issue, probably explains why you don't understand.
It's fine though if keeps the ground you inhabit morally superior to mine.
 
Despite that we still saw plenty of ominous signs plunging investments, loss of jobs, rising uncertainty. The economy was stalling, the virus has just made the issues that much worse.

Loss of jobs?
I'm sorry, but that is clearly a lie. The jobs market was fantastic.

"The UK unemployment rate stood at 3.8 percent in the three months to December 2019, the lowest level since early 1975 and in line with market expectations. The number of people out of work declined by 73,000 to 1.29 million while the number of employed people rose by 336,000 to a record high of 32.993 million"
 
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Loss of jobs?
I'm sorry, but that is clearly a lie. The jobs market was fantastic.

"The UK unemployment rate stood at 3.8 percent in the three months to December 2019, the lowest level since early 1975 and in line with market expectations. The number of people out of work declined by 73,000 to 1.29 million while the number of employed people rose by 336,000 to a record high of 32.993 million"
Not specifically disagreeing with the point, but it's worth pointing out how big a fiddle jobs figures are, especially if you are comparing to distant decades.

New Labour were the first big champions of taking large groups out of unemployment figures and putting them in different figures to make unemployment look better than it was. If you are over a certain age, you are in this stat instead; you are not in the official stats at all unless you are claiming jobseekers, etc

The Tories have continued this finagling and added their pointless rule that 16-18 year olds must stay on at school or be in training; this has taken a few more tens of thousands off the unemployment figures and was done for that purpose.

So comparing any post 1997 unemployment stats to pre-1997 is not especially helpful.
 
Not specifically disagreeing with the point, but it's worth pointing out how big a fiddle jobs figures are, especially if you are comparing to distant decades.

New Labour were the first big champions of taking large groups out of unemployment figures and putting them in different figures to make unemployment look better than it was. If you are over a certain age, you are in this stat instead; you are not in the official stats at all unless you are claiming jobseekers, etc

The Tories have continued this finagling and added their pointless rule that 16-18 year olds must stay on at school or be in training; this has taken a few more tens of thousands off the unemployment figures and was done for that purpose.

So comparing any post 1997 unemployment stats to pre-1997 is not especially helpful.

Agreed, this is particularly politically advantageous at times of high unemployment, but this was definitely not the case here. Unemployment had been dropping steadily since 2012 and was continuing the trend.
 
I agree with Feco and Starmer. Brexit is done The discussion now is agreements. Both with E U and other countries. Unfortunately to get any agreement with EU they have to believe we will accept a no deal. The best way of showing that is prepare for no deal. Deals will be done in 12th hour as many deals are. 12th hour mustn’t move as this becomes a perpetual no decision, which is even worse.

Many Brexiteers are not against immigration. Many countries that control their borders have higher immigration rates than EU. Just that they control it. When you have control a country can make offers to immigrants like Canada did in 2000 to Hong Kong and now Britain can in 2020.

If any of you are in doubt. I am of the Prof Lapavitsas school of thought that the Trade Union movement and representation was done a disservice by the EU and failed to get reform from within and therefore had no option but to leave. The fact a right wing govt is the one that delivers is a short term quirk of history.
 
The Hong Kong hand of friendship is a great idea. Not sure why you think leaving the EU is a single issue, probably explains why you don't understand.
It's fine though if keeps the ground you inhabit morally superior to mine.

Great idea, but as an urban society, the Hong Kong migrants will not be able to fill as many of the skills gaps as the EU migrants, but you would expect the education levels to be similar, if not higher from the Hong Kong migrants.
 
I agree with Feco and Starmer. Brexit is done The discussion now is agreements. Both with E U and other countries. Unfortunately to get any agreement with EU they have to believe we will accept a no deal. The best way of showing that is prepare for no deal. Deals will be done in 12th hour as many deals are. 12th hour mustn’t move as this becomes a perpetual no decision, which is even worse.

Many Brexiteers are not against immigration. Many countries that control their borders have higher immigration rates than EU. Just that they control it. When you have control a country can make offers to immigrants like Canada did in 2000 to Hong Kong and now Britain can in 2020.

If any of you are in doubt. I am of the Prof Lapavitsas school of thought that the Trade Union movement and representation was done a disservice by the EU and failed to get reform from within and therefore had no option but to leave. The fact a right wing govt is the one that delivers is a short term quirk of history.

It's in Starmer's interest to not scratch at the Brexit wound and keep it open.
If he wants to get into No10, he will have to shake his reputation as a remainer, or 'The Red Wall' will keep its tepid blue hue for longer than he needs.
 
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