EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’... | Page 474 | Vital Football

EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’...

Gills 58 said:
Well that's strange as my eldest brother voted leave and specified that immigration was the issue. Now you're saying he is a swivel eyed looney remainiac. I'm confused. Perhaps he was the one exception out of the 17m, eh?
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I assume that he is sufficiently educated to understand that the premise was 'controlling immigration, not 'stopping immigration'

Every single Labour supporter that I have spoken to agreed that free movement from the EU has driven down wages due to unlimited supply of cheap labour.
That is why most of the trade unions support leaving the EU.
 
ThreeSixes said:
You really have the hide of a Rhino haven't you - when do you ever respond to a request to provide proof of your "facts"? "Do your own research" is one of your catchphrases!
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Mainly because people can't be arsed or they write it because they have differing views
 
When a French Globalist says he is concerned about the sovereignty of Angleterre, then the world really is in the merde.
I honestly think that Macron has lost the plot.

Total denial about the failed WA.
They still seem to think that it's the only option that can pass through Parliament even though it's failed three times and they claim that they won't reopen it.

As Parliament clearly won't approve it, what do they suggest as an alternative?
No deal is all that is left.

Macron said today that although the British electorate voted to leave, the only sensible option is to revoke A50.
says it all about macron really.
Guaranteed a one term President.

Any of the brilliant minds on here have an alternative to the 3 x failed WA ?
 
shotshy said:
I assume that he is sufficiently educated to understand that the premise was 'controlling immigration, not 'stopping immigration'
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The only thing that will reduce immigration is a falling Pound; all Boris wants to do is apply a lot of red tape and increase the likelihood that immigrants from further afield are likely to remain, ie family ties etc
shotshy said:
Every single Labour supporter that I have spoken to agreed that free movement from the EU has driven down wages due to unlimited supply of cheap labour.
That is why most of the trade unions support leaving the EU.
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Not necessarily as this FT piece indicates:

"A common complaint of those opposed to migration is that European workers have depressed British wages, but the report found that “immigration is not a major determinant of the wage growth experienced by existing residents”.

There is some evidence that higher rates of immigration from the EU depressed wages for the lowest paid and enhanced them for the most highly paid. For the lowest paid — in the bottom tenth of the wage scale — EU migration is estimated to have reduced pay by 5 per cent in real terms between 1992 and 2017, but it raised pay by 3.5 per cent for those in the top tenth of the wage scale over the same period.

But pay still increased dramatically for those born in the UK. Those in the bottom tenth of the wage scale saw their pay increase by 49 per cent over the same period. Those in the top tenth had a pay increase of 35 per cent."
 
Fine.
Tell that to the bricklayer who is undercut by Polish brickies because he has to pay a mortgage and raise his family, while competing with others who live six to a house.
Or that that another figment of imagination ?

Why do you think that trade unions, who know there own business, support ending free movement and leaving the EU.
The Times journalist can right what he likes but the coal face shows a difference to that.
Unlimited cheap labour drives down wages.
 
Wayne.Kerr said:
The WA is a result of the EU accommodating the erstwhile PM's requirements. You seem to forget that the UK is leaving the EU not the other way around.

Boris could amend May's red lines. Nothing to do with Macron but Boris trying to hold the Tory Party together
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Eff me !!
I don't forget anything.
I'm fully aware that the UK is leaving not the other way round !

Johnson has amended May's redlines ... to the point of destroying them and introducing his own.

The WA proposal in it's current form is dead.
Why do I say that?
Because it has never been ratified by Parliament.
That was the deal with the EU
Both sides would agree the terms then put it to their respective Parliaments for ratification.
It has not been ratified, therefore it's not a deal.

The EU still think that it IS a deal and won't reopen it to make amendments.
So, the EU in full knowledge that the current agreement cannot pass through the UK Parliament, must accept that the UK leaves on 31st October without the WA in place.
The only other option is that the UK doesn't leave, which is really what it was all about in the first place.
Elmar Brok said exactly that yesterday.

Who blinks first.
Maybe neither and it is what it is.
 
shotshy said:
Tell that to the bricklayer who is undercut by Polish brickies because he has to pay a mortgage and raise his family, while competing with others who live six to a house.
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Bricklayers earnings range between £28k to £45k [lower end due to bloody foreign workers] so I wouldn't put them in the bottom tenth of earnings which is the only group adversely affected by immigrant workers. So no not a figment of anyones imagination only yours.
 
shotshy said:
You keep asking the question about the UK closing it's borders.
We won't.
Nobody has ever said we would.
If a Polish guy wishes to go to Ireland and then cross into NI and then to England. that's fine.
Nobody wants to stop that.
If he then decides that he'd like to find a job and settle, then there will be hoops that he must jump through to qualify for worker status, the same as anybody else except Irish citizens, who have exemption.
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But you need a border to police it. Otherwise how would you know who is coming in and out? I thought that one of the outcomes that many Brexiteers wanted was to control our immigration. That can only be done with a border otherwise it is open-door policy that will be abused.
 
shotshy said:
I don't forget anything.
I'm fully aware that the UK is leaving not the other way round !
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Then we're in no position to dictate terms
shotshy said:
Johnson has amended May's redlines ... to the point of destroying them and introducing his own.
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In what way and what are Boris' 'new' red lines?
shotshy said:
Who blinks first.
Maybe neither and it is what it is.
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So we leave with a no-deal [which we won't] and you'll be shedding crocodile tears for a lot more workers than just bricklayers
 
shotshy said:
Fine.
Tell that to the bricklayer who is undercut by Polish brickies because he has to pay a mortgage and raise his family, while competing with others who live six to a house.
Or that that another figment of imagination ?

Why do you think that trade unions, who know there own business, support ending free movement and leaving the EU.
The Times journalist can right what he likes but the coal face shows a difference to that.
Unlimited cheap labour drives down wages.
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Any half decent builder worth their salt has a backlog of 4-5 months ish of work. Go to a trust a trade website and see how long it takes you to get the top rated tradie out. I play cricket for a club that was founded by builders/plumbers/sparks/chippies and they are ALWAYS snowed under with work, to the point that the hope I had of getting the odd job done on mates rates has not and will never happen!

You're theoretical point about unemployed tradies because of immigrants is just not true. It's based on nonsense from the papers.

The unions will follow their memberships view, and if their members are mis informed - which they are - then so will their overall positions.
 
Gills 58 said:
Well that's strange as my eldest brother voted leave and specified that immigration was the issue. Now you're saying he is a swivel eyed looney remainiac. I'm confused. Perhaps he was the one exception out of the 17m, eh?
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shotshy said:
Brexit is not and never has been about stopping immigration.
Only swivel eyed looney Remainiacs think this.
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It was also a big play during the referendum. Anyone remember this example of Project Fear about all those foreigners ‘invading’ the UK. [Credit Vote Leave]

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...untries-Source-Vote-Leave-2016_fig1_328941178

This is why it’s all so confusing. Immigration was definitely a factor in the referendum for many Leavers and certainly for the Vote Leave campaign. Many people voted because they didn’t want Turkish, Syrian and Iranians coming to the UK. How do you reconcile your statement with the Vote Leave campaign Shotshy?
 
ThreeSixes said:
You are probably right, we would likely still be remaining in the EU if it wasn't for all of the Muslims coming into Europe
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If the referendum had been held in 2014 , I'm pretty sure remain would have won.
Then Merkel steps in and opens the floodgates in 2015.
Brexit could be blamed on Angela !
 
MedwayModernist said:
Any half decent builder worth their salt has a backlog of 4-5 months ish of work. Go to a trust a trade website and see how long it takes you to get the top rated tradie out. I play cricket for a club that was founded by builders/plumbers/sparks/chippies and they are ALWAYS snowed under with work, to the point that the hope I had of getting the odd job done on mates rates has not and will never happen!

You're theoretical point about unemployed tradies because of immigrants is just not true. It's based on nonsense from the papers.

The unions will follow their memberships view, and if their members are mis informed - which they are - then so will their overall positions.
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...labour-has-cost-blue-collar-Britain-dear.html

Article is a few years old but the principle remains the same.

site work , not your jobbing builder mates, is totally price driven.
cheapest quite gets the gig.
 
Trashbat said:
It was also a big play during the referendum. Anyone remember this example of Project Fear about all those foreigners ‘invading’ the UK. [Credit Vote Leave]

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...untries-Source-Vote-Leave-2016_fig1_328941178

This is why it’s all so confusing. Immigration was definitely a factor in the referendum for many Leavers and certainly for the Vote Leave campaign. Many people voted because they didn’t want Turkish, Syrian and Iranians coming to the UK. How do you reconcile your statement with the Vote Leave campaign Shotshy?
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Well, I don't really have to reconcile anything because I was never part of the Vote Leave campaign.

But, should you choose to explore the facts, Turkey, Albania and others are actually on the list as future EU members.
I'd suggest that Turkey failing to join having had it's application in since 2005, is more to do with their change of stance on the issue.
Erdogan has changed the face of Turkey, away from the west.
The next leader may well have a change of heart and it could be all systems go again.

To be honest mate, it's all water under the bridge now.
Many remainists are still fighting the referendum form over three years ago.

The situation that we now find ourselves in has to be dealt with.

Only limited things can happen.

No Brexit.
Leave with no withdrawal agreement.
A flash general election where Labour win and stop it.
A flash general election where Tories win and dump the DUP and agree to a NI only backstop.
A no overall majority result which leaves leaving with no WA as the legal default position.


All this talk of a government of unity is pie in the sky in my opinion.
There is no unity, even among remainists.
 
shotshy said:
But, should you choose to explore the facts, Turkey, Albania and others are actually on the list as future EU members.
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If you had an ounce of working grey matter then you would know that Turkey is unlikely ever to join. Until the country makes sea change after sea change in its policies, it cannot comply with almost none of the EU requirements for joining. Not sure what the significance of Albania is in terms of joining the EU.
shotshy said:
No Brexit.
Leave with no withdrawal agreement.
A flash general election where Labour win and stop it.
A flash general election where Tories win and dump the DUP and agree to a NI only backstop.
A no overall majority result which leaves leaving with no WA as the legal default position.
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If we leave with a no-deal than there will be a hard border in Ireland that will break the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.
shotshy said:
All this talk of a government of unity is pie in the sky in my opinion.
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I doubt that there is any unity but Boris does not want to break up the Tory because it is likely to be permanent.
shotshy said:
There is no unity, even among remainists.
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Remainers are at one; now, if you think that they are split somehow it's only because some want the referendum result reversed, some want a peoples' vote and some want a General Election but there is no equivalent of a soft, hard or no-deal remain.
 
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