Ya Basta! Ya Basta! | Page 2 | Vital Football

Ya Basta! Ya Basta!

"Nobs, that's just a legal definition as far as I'm concerned"

May be to you but legal definition all the same, you have to have a legal defence for killing for circumstances such as those you mention.
Whether you agree with it or not, a huge percentage of the killings in your link will be lawful.
The only reason I mentioned the Borough Market shooting was to illustrate how important it is to have a "lawful killing" verdict and to highlight that a shooting like that would be on your list of police killings.
I'm not rowing with you Bud, just think the link is a little inflammatory and could do with being a bit more detailed, ie, how many are lawful/unlawful. I don't see that as unreasonable.


Ok, fair enough, mate. I'm pleased we're not falling out about this. I know we're coming at it from different perspectives and we might disagree about certain aspects but I think it's fair to say that broadly speaking we're in agreement. We're both outraged by the racist police brutality, and we both condemn the wounding and/or killing of innocent police officers.

More than that even, we both support those officers who have put down their weapons and joined the protesters, they're the best! But as I alluded to before, there are those more militant than me who don't buy all that cops kneeling down stuff, they say that it's just a strategy to deal with the protesters and keep them calm. I don't know if that's right or not, but if it is, well I'd say that's a much better strategy than trying to disperse crowds with batons, tear gas, rubber bullets, etc, etc.

Though of course the President might need to walk across to a church for some sickening photo opportunity. In that case I suppose they have no choice but to bring out the tear gas, ffs!

Anyway, I got those names and dates from the LA Times, here:
https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-police-deaths-20160707-snap-htmlstory.html#2003

And have you seen Trudeau's rather lengthy pause when asked about the situation in the States?!:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world...-epic-pause-when-asked-about-trump-s-response
 
I think both poor black communities and many police officers regard themselves as being in a state of war with one another. And they both have good reasons for feeling this way reinforced by their daily experience of each other. I think understanding the problem in terms the police acting as the repressive arm of a racist state is about as useful as seeing the problem in terms of the inherent criminality of the black community. Both views are part of the problem and what keeps the US in this mess. What can be depressing is that good people have made massive efforts to improve things. At least one of Buddha's examples involved a non-white officer doing the killing (raising miserable questions about affirmative action putting the "wrong" sorts in the job), and look again at the racial composition of the squad in the Minneapolis killing.

People are suggesting no progress has been made, but I think this is flat out wrong. The problem is bigger than most of us realize and the solutions are complicated. Progress never happens fast enough. Under pressure all the old faultlines reappear and there are all sorts keen to exploit them. Trump and Bernie's boys can only offer a moment of feeling good, however, leaving people more miserable and hurt than they already are, and with a big clean up job the next morning. The violence will subside. The protests will shift towards community politics. Even the virus will ease. And, thank God, there's an election in November.
 
Because it doesn't balance those who have suffered extreme police brutality (I'm talking about the USA not the UK where such events are still fairly rare or are misreported). Play by the sword live by the sword.
Another 11 shot (6 wounded, 5 dead) in an ambush last night, reported by Today to be in retaliation for Mr Floyd's death.

Balanced yet or do you want more? How many is enough? Were these 11 racists?
 
Another 11 shot (6 wounded, 5 dead) in an ambush last night, reported by Today to be in retaliation for Mr Floyd's death.

Balanced yet or do you want more? How many is enough? Were these 11 racists?

Its why its dangerous to let these people have weapons.
 
I think this illustrates what most people know already , ie , the MSM either being biased , under-reporting , or ignoring anything that does fit the narrative.



Let me give an example of under reporting news in the UK.
Emily Jones , aged 7 was stabbed to death in Bolton , by a complete stranger.
Woman , 30 , detained under mental health act.
It wasn't a stabbing , the little girl was decapitated by an Albanian/Bosnian .
What ideology would promote beheading as a way of execution ? I think we all know the answer.
My point is , why are these fact being hidden from us ?
Why are the press and tv news not making a big deal about the police casualties?
It seems they are trying to stir up disorder with their cops bad/oppressed people good type reporting.

Do you have any evidence of the 7 year old being decapitated? Any evidence of the perpetrator's 'ideology'? Any evidence she's not mentally ill? Right wing websites were reporting she was killed by a Somalian migrant- that was a fact until she appeared in court and it became clear she wasn't. Are you suggesting the police are lying by saying she was stabbed in the neck? What ideology promotes beheading- could you be more specific?
 
I think both poor black communities and many police officers regard themselves as being in a state of war with one another. And they both have good reasons for feeling this way reinforced by their daily experience of each other. I think understanding the problem in terms the police acting as the repressive arm of a racist state is about as useful as seeing the problem in terms of the inherent criminality of the black community. Both views are part of the problem and what keeps the US in this mess. What can be depressing is that good people have made massive efforts to improve things


Society is in a bit of a pickle. It`s all too easy and convenient for the Federal State to sit on the sidelines and watch a tidal wave of social disillusionment and frustration launched and aimed at local and state Law Enforcement (LE) - who, to many ordinary citizens, are seen as the, as you say " repressive arm of a racist state". But where is the real problem, the deeper problem ? Surely it`s about more than the state of a nation`s policing.

Don`t get me wrong, i`m not defending the cop in the incident involving George Floyd. There seems little doubt that the Cop`s arrest and subsequent murder charge is appropriate and justice will take its course. Policing in the USA, as elsewhere, faces many challenges, but there is never an excuse for criminal behaviour from LE officers, never. I`ve actually worked in the USA with a number of LEA`s, so have some insight into their skill spectrum and working conditions.

So, I`m not saying that the police have no blame in the current situation. But I am saying that out of the almost one million LE officers in the USA the proportion of bad apples is very,very small. But, my point is this: i`m also saying that it`s not down to the police to put right the social wrongs, lack of opportunity and injustices that handicap many in poorer sections of society. That`s the job of the (Federal) State - the politicians. Thing is, who are they most loyal too ?????

I wonder whether society has drifted too far into Supercapitalism ? Where there`s a growing conflict between democracy and capitalism (As Robert Reich argues). He says :

"As citizens, we have ideals, but as consumers, we have needs. We abhor child labour, for instance, but we want a cheap pair of jeans. And we might be dismayed over the High Street`s demise, but we still look for bargains at Wal-Mart. Advancements in technology and a growing, dynamic economy set the stage for corporate competition to enter politics. Today, companies battle it out with other companies, fighting for laws and regulations that favor them and disadvantage their competitors. Such pressures make it more difficult for citizens to have a meaningful say in public policy."

Does Big Business, through political "lobby", have too big an influence on society ? Does it`s ability to influence and shape self-interest leave the wider agenda on social equality too much in the shadows ? Can politicians with genuine motivation to make society a better, more equal place, ever make lasting headway ?

Or does it just suit Big Business to have large pockets of poorer, less privileged people on hand, available to exploit. Who`s really pulling the strings when it come to politics ?

I`m asking, Guv`nor, exactly who`s exploiting whom ? Does anyone have the answer ?
 
Society is in a bit of a pickle. It`s all too easy and convenient for the Federal State to sit on the sidelines and watch a tidal wave of social disillusionment and frustration launched and aimed at local and state Law Enforcement (LE) - who, to many ordinary citizens, are seen as the, as you say " repressive arm of a racist state". But where is the real problem, the deeper problem ? Surely it`s about more than the state of a nation`s policing.

Don`t get me wrong, i`m not defending the cop in the incident involving George Floyd. There seems little doubt that the Cop`s arrest and subsequent murder charge is appropriate and justice will take its course. Policing in the USA, as elsewhere, faces many challenges, but there is never an excuse for criminal behaviour from LE officers, never. I`ve actually worked in the USA with a number of LEA`s, so have some insight into their skill spectrum and working conditions.

So, I`m not saying that the police have no blame in the current situation. But I am saying that out of the almost one million LE officers in the USA the proportion of bad apples is very,very small. But, my point is this: i`m also saying that it`s not down to the police to put right the social wrongs, lack of opportunity and injustices that handicap many in poorer sections of society. That`s the job of the (Federal) State - the politicians. Thing is, who are they most loyal too ?????

I wonder whether society has drifted too far into Supercapitalism ? Where there`s a growing conflict between democracy and capitalism (As Robert Reich argues). He says :

"As citizens, we have ideals, but as consumers, we have needs. We abhor child labour, for instance, but we want a cheap pair of jeans. And we might be dismayed over the High Street`s demise, but we still look for bargains at Wal-Mart. Advancements in technology and a growing, dynamic economy set the stage for corporate competition to enter politics. Today, companies battle it out with other companies, fighting for laws and regulations that favor them and disadvantage their competitors. Such pressures make it more difficult for citizens to have a meaningful say in public policy."

Does Big Business, through political "lobby", have too big an influence on society ? Does it`s ability to influence and shape self-interest leave the wider agenda on social equality too much in the shadows ? Can politicians with genuine motivation to make society a better, more equal place, ever make lasting headway ?

Or does it just suit Big Business to have large pockets of poorer, less privileged people on hand, available to exploit. Who`s really pulling the strings when it come to politics ?

I`m asking, Guv`nor, exactly who`s exploiting whom ? Does anyone have the answer ?

Great post, especially about the police not being there to solve society's ills. My experience of US police officers conforms to yours. I'm the white father of two brown children and seen the world from both sides now. If I had answers, I'd be off somewhere else making serious money. I think it's a pretty good bet that we've reached the limits of the trend set off by Thatcher and Reagan and are moving back towards bigger government, higher taxes, slower growth and maybe even a narrowing of the wealth gap. The danger lies in the novelty, uncertainty and sheer volume of the challenges posed by climate, digitization, China's rise, the US retreat, and the EU's crises. Does a penny on the pound plus increased public spending sound like the sort of capacity-building we need to deal with any of that? Oddly enough, the virus might be just the handbrake we needed to take a pause and take stock. Sadly handbrakes allow really crazy turns too.
 
Great post, especially about the police not being there to solve society's ills. My experience of US police officers conforms to yours. I'm the white father of two brown children and seen the world from both sides now. If I had answers, I'd be off somewhere else making serious money. I think it's a pretty good bet that we've reached the limits of the trend set off by Thatcher and Reagan and are moving back towards bigger government, higher taxes, slower growth and maybe even a narrowing of the wealth gap. The danger lies in the novelty, uncertainty and sheer volume of the challenges posed by climate, digitization, China's rise, the US retreat, and the EU's crises. Does a penny on the pound plus increased public spending sound like the sort of capacity-building we need to deal with any of that? Oddly enough, the virus might be just the handbrake we needed to take a pause and take stock. Sadly handbrakes allow really crazy turns too.


Thanks Guv`nor. Maybe collateral fallout from rapid change will be one of the most challenging phenomena society has ever had to solve. Accepting it`s an issue would be a good start...

I`m going all intergalactic and will now live by the phrase: "It`ll all change when the Aliens get in touch"
 
see the left wing scum are already kicking off in london. All been planned hence buck palace and police stations being bordered up weeks ago. Bet most of them have never heard of Floyd.
 
Another 11 shot (6 wounded, 5 dead) in an ambush last night, reported by Today to be in retaliation for Mr Floyd's death.

Balanced yet or do you want more? How many is enough? Were these 11 racists?
Nobby.
Either you didn't get the memo - or you need 'diversity' training.

Apparently only 'black' lives matter - and only white policeman can be brutal.
Looting, burning or throwing rocks - often in a different city - is, according to many TV outlets, 'understandable'.

And police protecting shops and property are to be decribed as 'aggressive' ....even when the policemen in view are standing calmly.


According to my policeman cousin, there is a problem with some big city policemen.
Partly it is because the 'bad apples' can be more anonymous ......
....but mostly it is because urban criminals are often far more violent than countryside rustlers - so urban police default to aggressive.
(e.g. the contrast between policeman at Millwall v. most other Away games is noticeable.)
 
Nobby.
Either you didn't get the memo - or you need 'diversity' training.

Apparently only 'black' lives matter - and only white policeman can be brutal.
Looting, burning or throwing rocks - often in a different city - is, according to many TV outlets, 'understandable'.

And police protecting shops and property are to be decribed as 'aggressive' ....even when the policemen in view are standing calmly.


According to my policeman cousin, there is a problem with some big city policemen.
Partly it is because the 'bad apples' can be more anonymous ......
....but mostly it is because urban criminals are often far more violent than countryside rustlers - so urban police default to aggressive.
(e.g. the contrast between policeman at Millwall v. most other Away games is noticeable.)
To be honest, I'm not getting into the "black lives matter" thing, I just don't see how murdering cops helps the scenario. To paint ACAB and randomly shoot police officers because of a minority is just as bad as cops treating all blacks badly because some of them are criminals. Its still discrimination and, in an off the wall way, similar to racism.
I once had a black lad say to me "You lot are all the same, all f***ing racists".
I asked him what he would think if I said "You lot are all the same, all f***ing robbers". To be fair to him, he stood and thought for a moment, broke into a massive grin and said, and I quote "Fuck me mate, you've got me".
He literally high fived me and walked off laughing.
That is the whole point I'm trying to get across, its not about point scoring, its about both sides (if that's how it is) understanding what each other wants. Trouble is, there's too much killing and not enough talking.

Bloody hell, I think I've just written a Michael Jackson record 😳
 
To be honest, I'm not getting into the "black lives matter" thing, I just don't see how murdering cops helps the scenario. To paint ACAB and randomly shoot police officers because of a minority is just as bad as cops treating all blacks badly because some of them are criminals. Its still discrimination and, in an off the wall way, similar to racism.
I once had a black lad say to me "You lot are all the same, all f***ing racists".
I asked him what he would think if I said "You lot are all the same, all f***ing robbers". To be fair to him, he stood and thought for a moment, broke into a massive grin and said, and I quote "Fuck me mate, you've got me".
He literally high fived me and walked off laughing.
That is the whole point I'm trying to get across, its not about point scoring, its about both sides (if that's how it is) understanding what each other wants. Trouble is, there's too much killing and not enough talking.

Bloody hell, I think I've just written a Michael Jackson record 😳

This is pretty much describes how everyone on this board has been arguing for the past 5 years Nobs.

Most people know that not all coppers are bent/racist/violent thugs, not all blacks are criminals, not all football fans are hooligans, not all brexiteers are xenophobics, not all remainers are hand-wringing lefties, not all Muslims are shoe bombers, not all Irish are thick, not all Scots are tight, etc.

Have I missed anyone out?

Come on y’all, on 3,

1, 2, 3, “Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya.......”
 
This is pretty much describes how everyone on this board has been arguing for the past 5 years Nobs.

Most people know that not all coppers are bent/racist/violent thugs, not all blacks are criminals, not all football fans are hooligans, not all brexiteers are xenophobics, not all remainers are hand-wringing lefties, not all Muslims are shoe bombers, not all Irish are thick, not all Scots are tight, etc.

Have I missed anyone out?

Come on y’all, on 3,

1, 2, 3, “Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya.......”
I was with you right up until the Scots 😉
 
This is pretty much describes how everyone on this board has been arguing for the past 5 years Nobs.

Most people know that not all coppers are bent/racist/violent thugs, not all blacks are criminals, not all football fans are hooligans, not all brexiteers are xenophobics, not all remainers are hand-wringing lefties, not all Muslims are shoe bombers, not all Irish are thick, not all Scots are tight, etc.

Have I missed anyone out?

Come on y’all, on 3,

1, 2, 3, “Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya.......”


You missed out the RE Right Side. They're not all naff (actually, they are, but I'm trying to stay with the mood here).
 
I was going to put this on the "Police lives matter" thread but realised there isn't one. Hope its OK for me to put it here?
I'm sure most, if not all, weren't racist so should be ok

In the last 96 hours...
-A Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Officer was shot in the back of the head while struggling with a rioter
-An active shooter opened fire on law enforcement at a Las Vegas courthouse
-4 St. Louis Police Officers were shot by an active shooter
-A New York Police Officer was struck by a vehicle
-3 Buffalo law enforcement officers were struck by a vehicle in front of the police station
-3 Davenport law enforcement officers were ambushed and 1 was shot
-132 officers were injured in Chicago during a riot
-9 Pittsburg officers were injured by objects during a riot
-Several officers in Rhode Island were injured during riots
-An active shooter opened fire at the Oakland Police Department
-2 officers were struck in the head with projectiles in Santa Ana
-2 Richland officers were shot in Virginia
-1 officer was struck in the head by a brick in Albany
-4 Prince William County Police Officers sustained head injuries from projectiles
-7 officers were injured in Sacramento -Several officers were shot at and injured in Lynchburg
-Several Champaign Police Officers were injured
-3 Oak Law Police Officers were injured -21 officers were injured in Salt Lake City
-At least 50 Secret Service Agents were injured by Molotov cocktails in Washington
-3 Denver Police Officers were ran over by a vehicle
-33 New York Police Officers were injured during riots
-6 Athens Police Officers injured during a protest
-2 Capitol Police Officers were injured during a riot in Harrisburg
-12 Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Officers were injured during riots
-21 Minneapolis law enforcement officers injured in riots
-1 Federal Protective Services Officer was shot and killed.

The Right to Bare Arms is a wonderful piece of legislation and in no way an anachronism in the 21st century. ( for those who are a little hard of thinking this is know as sarcasm)
 
The Right to Bare Arms is a wonderful piece of legislation and in no way an anachronism in the 21st century. ( for those who are a little hard of thinking this is know as sarcasm)
The right to bare a musket that takes half an hour to load, before the days of fully automatic assault weapons you mean? 😁😁
Yep, always makes me chuckle.