Why do we still under appreciate Winks?
- Thread starter Spursex
- Start date
freundorfoe
Vital 1st Team Regular
on his form for us Doherty isn't even a decent squad player
freundorfoe
Vital 1st Team Regular
Disagree. The stats also back up those of us who think he's a liability (ie most dribbled past player in the league, position on pitch when we concede & etc. woeful for a DM). He has superb stats in other areas, but if he's meant to be our defensive rock in front of the defence he's just not good enough.
D
Departed
Guest
I totally agree that he isn't good enough. His lack of mobility is screaming "replace me".
muttley
Alert Team
I want to see these stats. I must be missing something.
What are his pro vs con stats?
muttley
Alert Team
What stats are these? Should Frank Lampard be worried about his goalscoring records? Should Giggs be worried about his all time assists record?
Perhaps someone can explain to me what uses Hojbjerg has in the final third. I just see a top lad that is not a master of any trade, let alone a jack of all trades. BM figured this out years ago.
Pompey Yid
Vital Champions League
For me muttley I see Hoj playing in a 3, the say Triangle formation as in him being in front of the 2, thus putting his foot in disrupting our opponents initial attacks.
muttley
Alert Team
I get it, but it disappoints me. That position on the pitch is where you play your most creative player. We are proposing to play a water carrier there ahead of 2 water carriers to disrupt the opposition.
I think we have to look back to the Leicester match when we played Skipp, Hojbjerg and Winks, mostly flat. I don't recall any of them not having license to get forward and disrupt. They just needed to use their brains to know when to sit and when to go. That day, it was Winksy mostly anchoring and Pierre and Skipp getting into advanced areas either side. The problem was putting Pierre on his weaker left foot. It just looked a bit awkward but sort of worked.
Are we just over analysing this though? Can we now play Hojbjerg with Bentancur in a 2 because the latter has pace. Are we that worried about exposing Pierre's pace and mobility issue? Could Kulu be the player that makes up the 3 man midfield but is mostly responsible for the guile that guys like Pierre lack?
Real Deal
Alert Team
Pretty sure for a few seasons now he has the most ball wins in the final third of the pitch. Or at least right up there.
Pompey Yid
Vital Champions League
You are so right there muttley, but I was thinking more of the disruption he could cause early on thus letting Bentacur go about his distribution business, whilst Skippy did a very good protection service.
Pompey Yid
Vital Champions League
I have always rated Winks and said there is a very good Midfielder screaming to get out, but I look at him now and simply n crudely think "What the Fcuk!"
What has happened? simple question!
What has happened? simple question!
I may be wrong Pompey but for me he has never been the same since he injured his ankle in that freak off the pitch collision. He came back and seemed to be very averse to tackling and really lost a lot of his more aggressive play. I will say that his mobility has now improved.
Injury is just an excuse.
His 'best', if we can call those patches of good form anything of the sort, came playing along the best group of players we've had in the PL. Playing ahead of Vert/Toby, next to Dembele/Wanyama and behind Erkisen/Dele/Kane in their peaks makes the most average player look the bit.
As soon as that group started to fall apart he never managed to step up, for all the reasons in the world.
My question is why the hell did Spurs fans overhype Winks for so long?
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Take it as you will. Just my observation.
RichmondSpur
Vital Football Hero
Because Spurs fans want a hero to cling onto and become in denial when other observers see the shortcomings that say otherwise, Alli is another example of being massively overhyped.
muttley
Alert Team
So here's my theory. Spurs 1954 has a big part of the answer actually with the injury. OcDor has another based on some great players around him.
You have to go back to that big pre-season he had when he announced himself on the scene. Then look at the times he played with Big Vic in the 4-2-3-1. Then look at his excellent England performances. Look for patterns. Then think about the hopeless Sissoko and Hojbjerg partnerships since.
Winks best partnership was with Wanyama. Everyone assumed Winks would play ahead of Big Vic. What actually happened was that the young Winks could play the Scholesy schemer role but with a minder alongside him. Just like Keane did with Scholesly, the hard man would run beyond him. Winksy would take the ball in tight spaces, he would keep the ball away from the other player and he would retain possession. He also had a great forward pass in him and could carry the ball forward, but not as much as Wanyama did. Spurs players moved to receive the ball in those days.
Spurs centre midfield has been a mess for years. Firstly, Dier tried to carry it on his own as Wanyama, Dembele and Winks just weren't fit for selection. Ably supported by Eriksen and Dele who sacrificed their own strengths to get deeper and deeper, especially Christian. Then they had their meltdowns. In the middle of all that, Sissoko came along and just played for himself. Christian got even deeper and finally quit on the water carrying role to allow Sissoko to do what he wanted. The most irresponsible centre mid out of the lot of them. Useless buy. Finally Hojbjerg, who is a very poor man's Wanyama. If it wasn't bad enough having a poor man's Scholesy in Winksy.
These phases all meant that Winks had to change himself from Scholes to Makelele, a role he's not equipped for. He also let himself get into those backwards and sideway passes habits, as moving off the ball become extinct under all of our managers since Poch, including the incumbent.
All we can do is move on though. We need to stop comparing Hojbjerg and Winksy as even Dier got crocked eventually. There was no defensive midfielder. Neither Pierre or Winksy are good enough. We need to be comparing them to Wanyama and Dembele. Neither come close. Winksy is naturally a very gifted player. Hojbjerg isn't, but the net, net is the same from both of them in their contribution. I have a feeling Skipp will go the same way as well.
Keep Skipp, sell the other two and hope that Sarr is the French Bellingham. I also hope that Bissouma isn't convicted and slots in with Bentancur.
Alli was never over hyped, he was world class in his first 3 seasons. The problem was that most couldn't realise that his head wasn't in football as he transitioned from great to average to dross.
But yes, we do have a clinging issue for sure.
RichmondSpur
Vital Football Hero
He was overhyped in his fourth, fifth and sixth seasons. Our fans were still singing that; 'we've got Dele Alli' chant when he was serving up so much shite. Clinging and in denial.
