We need to talk about...
- Thread starter NottyImp
- Start date
If you don't do it well, our current madness can quite easily get a side in trouble at the wrong end of the table.
I have no problem with playing possession based football, but that goal today was complete feckin lunacy. Competing with these sides is hard enough without giving goals away!
It's a catch 22 at the minute because MA has a way of playing that some aren't necessarily up to (or good enough at). Or that the players in front aren't quite giving the options to the defenders etc etc.
One of those where you either put the blueprint in place now and accept you're going to give some goals away or scrap it and play the strengths of the players, although we don't play with a target man so is there that option? The other thing to consider as well is that if you want to play a possession game like MA does, if you can't play it out from a GK then at what point do you then get hold of the ball again? Possession feels more important at L1 level and I think if you gave it up too easily then you would have chances created against you. At L2 level it'd either peter out or be kicked back to you.
That said, I'd argue Vickers and Shackell are adequate on the ball and had brain fart moments. I do think players nowadays, less so Shackell who's from a different era really, follow instructions to the letter rather than engaging their footballing brain sometimes.
One of those where you either put the blueprint in place now and accept you're going to give some goals away or scrap it and play the strengths of the players, although we don't play with a target man so is there that option? The other thing to consider as well is that if you want to play a possession game like MA does, if you can't play it out from a GK then at what point do you then get hold of the ball again? Possession feels more important at L1 level and I think if you gave it up too easily then you would have chances created against you. At L2 level it'd either peter out or be kicked back to you.
That said, I'd argue Vickers and Shackell are adequate on the ball and had brain fart moments. I do think players nowadays, less so Shackell who's from a different era really, follow instructions to the letter rather than engaging their footballing brain sometimes.
imps_joe
Vital Football Hero
Or for vickers to try a chip pass.... Even if that gets through Tof (or whoever receives it), he's in trouble.
Mattytindraws
Vital Reserves Team
For what it’s worth I wonder if the fucking about at the back is partly driven by Vickers being unable or unwilling to ‘launch’ it due to his previous injuries and/or a reluctance to go long given we have so little physical presence on the pitch to win it...thereby merely inviting more and more pressure. Or we could just be shit.
On the subject of playing from the back, we tried that against Wednesday in pre-season. Can't remember the back four or five that day but we didn't get too much success back then albeit we took it to the extreme and almost seemed to be, rightly, treating it as a bit of practise against good opposition who pressed high.
Chesterimp
Vital Football Hero
But he launched it very accurately to find Toff v Posh, if you watch him hes always looking for the opportunity; he seems to have his kicking technique sorted. It also depends on the awareness of the outfield players to create those opportunities.
Brendan Bradley
Vital Squad Member
I just wonder how long it takes to get this right and whether the way training is conducted with goalkeepers is right. This is what Gary Neville said after his (admittedly failed) spell in Valencia
“I remember speaking to Ocho [Jose Manuel Ochotorena], the Valencia goalkeeper coach, and he told me the goalkeepers would come out [to train] at the exact same time as the players.
“They will then take part in the small possession games, the 8v2s. When I played, we didn’t want the goalkeepers in those, because they’d mess it up! In Spain, they’d partake and get their feet moving.
They’d then go into a possession practice, maybe a 4v4 with two spare, and the two spare would be the goalkeepers on the edge of the pitch, serving in. They would get used to serving the ball in, one or two touch, under pressure.
“You’d then go into your small-sided game or practice match and they would continue. At the end of the session when the footballing work was done, they’d then go to do their goalkeeping work at the end of the session, when they were more tired. It was a complete transformation and change in the way I saw goalkeeper training.
“At the end I thought there was no wonder that the Spanish goalkeepers are better with their feet. They have an hour extra every single day playing with their feet.
“That’s why you then see English goalkeepers over the last five, 10, 15 years who are not as good with their feet as their Spanish counterparts.”
“I remember speaking to Ocho [Jose Manuel Ochotorena], the Valencia goalkeeper coach, and he told me the goalkeepers would come out [to train] at the exact same time as the players.
“They will then take part in the small possession games, the 8v2s. When I played, we didn’t want the goalkeepers in those, because they’d mess it up! In Spain, they’d partake and get their feet moving.
They’d then go into a possession practice, maybe a 4v4 with two spare, and the two spare would be the goalkeepers on the edge of the pitch, serving in. They would get used to serving the ball in, one or two touch, under pressure.
“You’d then go into your small-sided game or practice match and they would continue. At the end of the session when the footballing work was done, they’d then go to do their goalkeeping work at the end of the session, when they were more tired. It was a complete transformation and change in the way I saw goalkeeper training.
“At the end I thought there was no wonder that the Spanish goalkeepers are better with their feet. They have an hour extra every single day playing with their feet.
“That’s why you then see English goalkeepers over the last five, 10, 15 years who are not as good with their feet as their Spanish counterparts.”
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FulwoodImp
Vital Youth Team
Yesterday Toff played it back in to Shackell on his right foot, from out wide back in to the 6 yard box. Toff was pressed and didn’t have an easy forward ball to feet and chose not to just clip it up the line. So we had three opportunities to clear (Vickers, Shacks, Toff), before the final comedy calamity! Sunderland had done their homework and the opposition will be chomping at the bit to press us when they review our recent matches.
devonexlondonimp
Vital 1st Team Regular
Moving on to next weekend, Shrewsbury play a high press game directed onto the opposition full backs (very visible at the home game) therefore i feel we will have a change of tactics and need to dump the rearguard tippy tappy mode or we could be shafted again.
This self destruction defending has led to conceding goals at Sunderland,at home to Posh and away at Coventry and is poor decision making.....learn a lesson.
Shrews. normally set up as a 3-5 -2 and MA is fully aware of the the line up we need to put in place to counter that proposal,let`s not see any more of this dire decision making by our defenders.
As you say the opposition are aware that defensively we show little confidence when pressed so let`s not be having this conversation next week.
See you in Shropshire! it`s gonna be tough(1 loss in 8 for Shrews)
Shrews have a big fa cup replay v Bristol City in the following week that we play them.
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... learn a lesson... is right.
I think the lesson to be learnt is when to play out from the back and when to clear your lines.
But we will still play out from the back.
I think the way forward was seen in the games against Ipswich and Peterborough.
Tweaks will be made but I don’t personally see us ditching the approach in the long run.
This is about being equipped to challenge at the top end of the league in 2 years time and it will involve being able to play out from the back.
We are not consistently good at this stuff at the moment.
There may be games where change tactics.
Over time personnel will also change and presumably be able to fit the style better.
Next week - from memory Shrewsbury were a big physical side, so launching it long to Walker, Hesketh, Payne and co will also pose problems.
The problems of trying to be successful in L1.
It'd be interesting to know if Wycombe play out from the back.
tell_it_like_it_is
Vital Reserves Team
At this level the ball should only be played back to the goalkeeper to clear it down field. We shouldn't be trying to use the keeper as an extra defender.
Additionally if a defender is pinned in a full back area he should clear it long and not look inside for another defender or keeper.
Additionally if a defender is pinned in a full back area he should clear it long and not look inside for another defender or keeper.
If we can get to the end of this season without doing so, I doubt I will ever see us concede a more calamitous goal to the end of my days!
NottyImp
Vital Football Legend
It's up there with Farman's keepy-uppy incident.
gijsbert_bos
Vital Football Hero
I remember scratching my head when DC renewed Vickers' contract. Personally would have kept Grant as backup and signed a better (and less injury-prone) 'keeper than Vickers as No1.
I'm not sure whether I'm being unfair or not but Vickers this season is reminding me of Farman in L2 i.e. a step too far.
He's had a bit of a mare these last few weeks. Off the top of my head, I thought the Coventry goal was soft, the Sunderland goal and I'm not really sure where I stand with the Posh one either because that was hardly right in the corner (view possibly blocked, can't remember).
He's had a bit of a mare these last few weeks. Off the top of my head, I thought the Coventry goal was soft, the Sunderland goal and I'm not really sure where I stand with the Posh one either because that was hardly right in the corner (view possibly blocked, can't remember).
