jokerman
Vital Football Hero
I do hope you are not calling me ‘left’.
You are absolutely right on the numbers, but by the standards and rules about margins to which the game is played, it was a landslide of -let me see- Trumpian proportions.
US Presidential election
- Thread starter PhilK66
- Start date
I do hope you are not calling me ‘left’.
You are absolutely right on the numbers, but by the standards and rules about margins to which the game is played, it was a landslide of -let me see- Trumpian proportions.
Buddha
Vital Football Hero
Jokerman the Socialist, ha ha ha!!! Keep the Red Flag flying won't you!
Tarian's not wrong that Trump got a lot of votes though. What do you reckon will be the general response to last night from the less fanatical Trump supporters/voters? Are they likely to be repelled by the attack on democracy? Or will they continue to believe that democracy has failed them and that the actions last night were justified?
LancsGordoRoad
Vital Champions League
Thanks Jokerman. Hopefully people will see that the poison tip, that was the extremists who used violence to storm the Capitol, is not Republicanism manifested, is it ? But rather, a load of nut-jobs easily swayed and heavily influenced by mischief-makers - Trump included.
But what happens to the huge mass of 73.999m voters who, it`s assumed, remain disappointed with the general direction of politics in the U.S. ? Is there someone else, of the red variety, waiting in the wings, who is less arrogant, volatile and narcissistic than the Donald, but equally capable of a new populism?
Not sure who to listen to from the American MSM. Last night I switched US channels and, whilst there was unification in condemning violence, it was as if the reporters and anchors chewing over the wider situation were on very different planets.
From afar and with no real insight to an "on the street" perspective, it seems that our most important friend and ally is in a bit of a mess ?
The atmospherics must make your lectures very interesting. Thanks Jokerman.
MedwayModernist
Vital Squad Member
The word is **** Buddha...
edit - a four letter word beginning with c, then a u, then an n, then a t for tarian
ThreeSixes
Vital Football Hero
Ark at you! You're really getting into this democracy / voting lark aren't you!? You have changed so much over the last few years
MedwayModernist
Vital Squad Member
What the Reps need to do is distance themselves from the nutcases as best as possible, and move away from the far right.
They may lose the next election, but if the Oann, Qanon, NewsMax idiots go and follow Trump as a third party, then that's probably only 20m voters out of the pool.
The reps could then come back to the centre right, where most of the sane ones would would probably like to be anyway, and they can start battling with the dems for the voters nearer the middle, and you come back to some sort of sanity, where the two parties can at least agree on the facts of what is happening in the world, and then discuss how to act for them, rather than the current situation where you get lunatics who chose the "alternative facts" they believe.
I have never previously thought this could happen, but given last night, nothing would surprise me anymore.
They may lose the next election, but if the Oann, Qanon, NewsMax idiots go and follow Trump as a third party, then that's probably only 20m voters out of the pool.
The reps could then come back to the centre right, where most of the sane ones would would probably like to be anyway, and they can start battling with the dems for the voters nearer the middle, and you come back to some sort of sanity, where the two parties can at least agree on the facts of what is happening in the world, and then discuss how to act for them, rather than the current situation where you get lunatics who chose the "alternative facts" they believe.
I have never previously thought this could happen, but given last night, nothing would surprise me anymore.
Buddha
Vital Football Hero
Ark at you! You're really getting into this democracy / voting lark aren't you!? You have changed so much over the last few years
Ha ha, suppose that's fair comment, 3x6.
However, three things:
1) I've always considered liberal democracy to be a far preferable option than any kind of authoritarian dictatorship.
2) Democracy even in its purest form isn't pefect; and neither the UK nor the US systems are anywhere near pure democracy!
3) I don't oppose democracy anywhere near as much as I oppose fascism, communism, capitalism, racism and patriarchy.
ThreeSixes
Vital Football Hero
They are definitely nutcases, but they are nutcases with votes, and when it comes to an election decided by a few million, you can't refer to "only 20m voters"
LockdownLife
Vital Squad Member
Apologies for not breaking up my response but I'm on my phoneWhen will people comment on what Trump actually said - and not how the media frame stuff ?
If Trump had actually "incited ... civil unrest" surely that footage would have been everywhere.
Instead we say Trump talking about walking to the Capitol peacefully -which the vast majority of Trump supporters did....
...then later urging people to go home "and not play into the hands of our opponents" (looking for any excuse to tar Trump supporters)
Of course when the TV voice-over says repeatedly that people "stormed" the Capitol .....
.....while showing people calmly walking up the Capitol's steps....even filing across a lobby respecting a rope cordon.....
As people remember BLM rallies, with shops looted, some burning, street furniture chucked everywhere.....
....with voice-overs describing a "peaceful protest".
...what is the confused viewer expected to think ?
Yup. That's Cancel Culture.
If you don't like it, shut it down.
Agreed.
That's what happens when people repeat unevidenced assertions - aggressively and coupled with abuse.
Q. How can different people see the same "facts" and draw opposite conclusions ?
A1. When political commentators mis-represent an opponent, giving permission for others to repeat the "lie"
A2. When the media re-frame those facts to create an opposite impression.
Either there are objective "truths" or there is chaos.
Genuine freedom has a fight on its hands.
Which "riot" was that ?
A few scuffles perhaps. but "riot "???
I believe that by continuing to pedal the "we won the election" and "we will stop them" lines to a passionate crowd he knew exactly what he was doing. Now whether he thought they'd overrun the Capitol I don't know, but he can't be overly surprised that is what happened.
I don't think it's cancel culture (which goes to far), its more holding a person of power to account for the affect they have on the general population.
But how does something become 'true' in your book? I accept things can always come out that disprove a previous truth. But at some point you have to accept things are true at that given time. Personally when there is a lack of evidence to the contrary and a spectrum of people (with different motives and opinions), including experts agree on something then I believe that to be true. I have seen no evidence of note to say the election is rigged and the opinion of Trump does not beat the opinion of all the others.
I believe it to be a riot. The people who stayed in the road opposite the capitol were protesting. Breaking through a police corden, breaking windows and doors to climb through them, trashing offices, breaking plaques (amongst others), stealing post and lecturns, forcing people to evacuate a room would all define those that went inside as rioters to me.
Therealwaldo
Vital Squad Member
Yes, just like the thrill you would have had as the Nazis burned down the Reichstag.
jokerman
Vital Football Hero
The People's flag is deepest red
I'm feeling tired; I'm going to bed
Tarian is right about some things and, like you, tests the mettle of received opinion which is nearly always a good thing.
We've had multiple moments already with Trump when people, including me, have said, "he's gone too far this time" and it turns out he hasn't, so I'm gun shy on making that call.
I know three Trump supporters well. All three I would trust to come through in a fix. Their support for him is fueled by both personal resentments about how life has worked out for them, but also a sense of the country going to, or being lost to, the dogs. Hard work unrewarded, and in the retired police officer's case, unappreciated, while we are asked to feel sorry for those who do nothing to help themselves and make a mess of the place -the usual arguments. I think only one of them is hard core and he is the rich one. They all get a huge kick out of how Trump is rude to preachy, unproductive, educated types like myself leading secure lives yet moaning at everything and guilting people like them.
These three are white men, but it would be a huge mistake to see Trumpism as a white male project only. White males moved slightly away from him this election, white women stuck with him, and there was a small movement of black men and Latinos towards him. I've met black businessmen who are red hot supporters and the Trump supporters in my classes are real cross-section (they are also very shy of speaking out -unnecessarily, I think, but there you are).
The question is not will they stick with Trump, so much as where else have the got to turn? Left populism faces the same problems here as it does in the UK -a coalition between a workerism based on workers who are of shrinking importance to the creation of the nation's wealth in the classical socialist sense, on the one hand, and a collection of self-absorbed, middle class, identity obsessions on the other -the very thing that drives the Trump supporters nuts. How do Biden and Harris ride that horse -and they have two years to accomplish something before the mid-term elections gum them up?
Uncertain times and no obvious answers and -yes- America getting it right IS of huge importance to the rest of the world, and especially the West, still. There be dragons out there.
valenciagill
Vital Football Hero
Good post mate
ThreeSixes
Vital Football Hero
Good man
Detritus
Vital Squad Member
But his opponent got over 7 million more, about 10% of his votes. That's pretty biggly.
valenciagill
Vital Football Hero
Pretty close to the Brexit for/against figures
Vambogills
Vital Football Hero
When will people comment on what Trump actually said - and not how the media frame stuff ?
If Trump had actually "incited ... civil unrest" surely that footage would have been everywhere.
Instead we say Trump talking about walking to the Capitol peacefully -which the vast majority of Trump supporters did....
...then later urging people to go home "and not play into the hands of our opponents" (looking for any excuse to tar Trump supporters)
Of course when the TV voice-over says repeatedly that people "stormed" the Capitol .....
.....while showing people calmly walking up the Capitol's steps....even filing across a lobby respecting a rope cordon.....
As people remember BLM rallies, with shops looted, some burning, street furniture chucked everywhere.....
....with voice-overs describing a "peaceful protest".
...what is the confused viewer expected to think ?
Yup. That's Cancel Culture.
If you don't like it, shut it down.
Agreed.
That's what happens when people repeat unevidenced assertions - aggressively and coupled with abuse.
Q. How can different people see the same "facts" and draw opposite conclusions ?
A1. When political commentators mis-represent an opponent, giving permission for others to repeat the "lie"
A2. When the media re-frame those facts to create an opposite impression.
Either there are objective "truths" or there is chaos.
Genuine freedom has a fight on its hands.
Which "riot" was that ?
A few scuffles perhaps. but "riot "???
You really are the most comical apologist for Trump. Even staunch Republicans he hasn't already fired are lining up to condemn his behaviour.
Your glaring right wing brotherhood with Trump and his chum Farage is fine but please don't waste your time trying to convince me that last nights attack on democracy was not a calculated incitement of his hard-core, combat wearing support to go 'wild'.
Still using dodgy debating tricks.
i) argument by exception
ii) appeal to authority
iii) argument by extreme
.....but why not kick off with a (mild) insult ???
"apologist" ..... I'm so hurt (not).
"some" staunch Republicans criticising Trump doesn't equal "all".
"right wing" - "ouch".
I suppose we know that anyone not fully signed up to socialist, collectivist, ill-liberal policies must be condemned as "right wing".
Is this because we can see through the many internal inconsistencies ?
Or that most such policies are based on a twisted world-view - with little basis in objective reality ?
So let's "play the man" rather than the ball !
(i.e. What has Farage got to do with this ??????)
Where was the "attack on democracy" ?
Thousands of people protested against what they consider an unsafe election result.
A tiny handful were involved in scuffles (at least one provoked by a security guard.)
Did the protester sitting in the Speaker's Chair really "attack democracy" ???
Surely the real "attack on democracy" is the complete and utter dismissal of scores of reported irregularities ....
...as to say "if we admit to one, how many more might be uncovered".
But according to the BBC:
"Georgia's top election official, Republican Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, rejected the president's assertion, saying there were just two confirmed cases of votes attributed to dead people."
"two confirmed cases" sound like weasel words to me....
...one step along from "no evidence of widespread fraud".
Do you want to be "convinced" ? Or have you made up your mind already ?
Did you listen to what Trump actually said ?
His speech earlier talked about "peaceful protest".
By early evening he asked protestors to " go home peacefully".
If you can provide one quote (in context) that amounts to "incitement to violence/ riot / storm " (as distinct from encouraging to protest peacefully) I will withdraw.
Can you ??
Does this mean that you oppose the likes of Antifa ?
(Or, like most lefties, view protestors through one-way lenses)
How about an objective post for once ?
Please .......
Yet somehow BLM and Antifa activists, attacking and in some cases burning shops, attacking police, hurling street furniture, statues etc get a (largely) free pass.
How do you explain that ?
(Could it because some causes are deemed by the media thought police to be politically "correct" ? )
LancsGordoRoad
Vital Champions League
Not for me to explain. As far as i`m concerned, the term " load of nut-jobs easily swayed and heavily influenced by mischief-makers" could (equally) describe any group involved in the crimes that you mention.
