The War on Drugs - Good /Bad?

[BodyButter]

I don't know if I'd like to see legalisation of 'all' drugs but I'd certainly like to see 'most of them' legalised.

Maybe a good starting point is to legalise drugs where the harm to the user (based on the evidence) is lower than alcohol. This means we wouldn't legalise heroin, crack cocaine, meth and other opioids stronger than heroin (e.g. fentanyl) but would legalise weed, LSD, mushrooms, ecstasy and other psychedelics (which are all pretty fun btw).

Cocaine also wouldn't be a good drug to legalise IMO... I do think there will be a time in the not too distant future where weed is completely legal. That drug seems to be getting legalised in a lot of places right now.

I guess the argument for complete legalisation is that the junkies are buying it anyway. Making it illegal just creates a black market and all of the attached problems.

You'd have to do it in a way that doesn't encourage consumption though.

 

[CDX_EIRE]

Cocaine also wouldn't be a good drug to legalise IMO... I do think there will be a time in the not too distant future where weed is completely legal. That drug seems to be getting legalised in a lot of places right now.

I'd probably agree with you however cocaine is another drug being examined for psychology treatments. The stuff that hits the streets is nothing like pure cocaine.

I've no idea how true the stuff below is but Dr. Carl Hart is legit.

 

[Pangloss]

I guess the argument for complete legalisation is that the junkies are buying it anyway. Making it illegal just creates a black market and all of the attached problems.

You'd have to do it in a way that doesn't encourage consumption though.

There's no free lunch is there and you will have to trade off restricting the black market, which brings all sort of evils to the table from the gangland element to the filthiness of the drugs which do hit the streets - full of horrific and corrosive materials which cause a lot of damage, with what will almost certainly be higher consumption.

If the drugs are too hard to buy then the black market will continue to exist. So really you're going to have more users. This will therefore have to be a public health concern.

The other thing not covered in any analysis is the interaction effect. At a basic level many of these drugs will be consumed with alcohol which changes the effect. A lot of people will likely want to experiment consuming e.g. cocaine with ecstasy. The interaction effects between drugs can cause more damage with increased toxicity and other dangerous behaviours.

As I say, I'm for legalisation for the most part, hell I use drugs myself so have a vested interest. But the legalisation arguments I see are generally far too utopian. It has to be viewed through the lens of the trade offs.

 

[Pangloss]

I'd probably agree with you however cocaine is another drug being examined for psychology treatments. The stuff that hits the streets is nothing like pure cocaine.

I've no idea how true the stuff below is but Dr. Carl Hart is legit.

I think it's all about the volume and how it's administered. Doing loads of highly pure coke will result in your heart exploding.

Right now ecstasy and psilocybin (the active ingredient in mushrooms) are being considered as treatments for depression. Psilocybin in particular seems to be generating a lot of interest in the scientific community based on RTC data. But obviously these drugs are not being administered in the way most drug users do, i.e. with a block of MDMA or smoking some shrooms.

 

[The Fear]

I think it's all about the volume and how it's administered. Doing loads of highly pure coke will result in your heart exploding.

Right now ecstasy and psilocybin (the active ingredient in mushrooms) are being considered as treatments for depression. Psilocybin in particular seems to be generating a lot of interest in the scientific community based on RTC data. But obviously these drugs are not being administered in the way most drug do, i.e. with a block of MDMA or smoking some shrooms.

And some studies on PTSD

 

[Stephen Jay Hawkings]

I would agree that weed and psychedelics should me made legal, but it would have to be very carefully done, and there should be a lot of educating around it.

People need to know what they are taking and how it it will make them feel, and to have a plan if it all goes south.

 

[Pangloss]

I would agree that weed and psychedelics should me made legal, but it would have to be very carefully done, and there should be a lot of educating around it.

People need to know what they are taking and how it it will make them feel, and to have a plan if it all goes south.

Very much so. As far as I'm aware these drugs can unlock serious mental illness (e.g. schizophrenia) in certain types of people.

 

[Villan57]

Very much so. As far as I'm aware these drugs can unlock serious mental illness (e.g. schizophrenia) in certain types of people.

They wouldn't legalise Alcohol if it was invented today, there are enough loonies about without people running around out of their trees legally

 

[BodyButter]

Dutch police are trying to discourage cocaine use by showing a container which one of the gangs used to torture anyone who got in their way.

Of course, it won't work because the link between cocaine use and gangs is the legal status of the drugs, not the behaviour of casual users.

Maybe they should take politicians on a a tour of the container and show them the result of their inaction?

 

[BodyButter]

For some reason, the link won't paste.

 

[Platypus]

People have gotten high since the first caveman to eat some mushrooms and no amount of legislation is going to stop them trying.

Legalise, tax and treat addiction as a health issue. Portugal has decriminalised drugs and seen their addiction and usage rates drop but the biggest benefit being prison population for drug related crime has plummeted. Our prisons are crammed full and failing and so many young men really shouldn't be in there *learning* how to become real criminals after being sent down for drugs.

 

[HeathfieldRoad1874]

Drug related crimes leading to prison time are one of the biggest contributors to institutionalising people to the prison system. It makes absolute sense to choose another way to deal with this.

 

[Pangloss]

Policies to tackle drugs over the past 100 years have been abject failures. The only way forward is legalisation. Start with the drugs which are demonstrably less bad/ as bad as alcohol (which is most drugs) and work it from there.

This would bring in a new income stream via taxes and reduce crime. Then focus will have to shift on the public health aspects. The latter is a better situation than the former.

 

[Platypus]

If it *was* a war, it's been a massacre, frankly, and the drugs won.

 

[Melon Donkey]

Policies to tackle drugs over the past 100 years have been abject failures. The only way forward is legalisation. Start with the drugs which are demonstrably less bad/ as bad as alcohol (which is most drugs) and work it from there.

This would bring in a new income stream via taxes and reduce crime. Then focus will have to shift on the public health aspects. The latter is a better situation than the former.

Incredibly naive I'm afraid .

So the drug dealers at all levels will suddenly become law abiding citizens and gladly pay their taxes. No of course they won't. They will continue to be underground and make their money and leave the legal firms to pay their taxes and charge more than the underground market. There is always an underground market for everything.

The extra taxes will of course be directed by our wonderful governments straight to the NHS so they can deal with the huge increase in both medical and psychological patients from drug use. But yes of course the great British public can be trusted to be responsible when they are given free rein to smoke, inhale and inject themselves legally. After all they could be trusted to wear masks and not go to the beach when asked.

Lower crime?. Yes of course those who are criminally minded and users at the bottom of the chain will all of a sudden become law abiding citizens and have the disposable income so they don't need to burgle, rob, steal to buy their now legal (including tax) drugs . But of course they won't need to go legally buying because Mr law abiding drug dealer hasn't gone law abiding after all and is still punting it out underground like he always has to make the max profit.

Not saying it's working don't have answers but sure isn't what you say in my humble.

 

[Stephen Jay Hawkings]

A few years ago in Dublin loads of head shops opened where you could get legal highs.

They were then the subject of firebombing and arson from disgruntled drug gangs who were losing out, and when the Minister for Justice's house was petrol bombed, the government decided legal highs could not be sold in these shops anymore.

So the cartel won basically, and until they're taken out, I don't know how you legalize drugs.

 

[Pangloss]

Incredibly naive I'm afraid .

So the drug dealers at all levels will suddenly become law abiding citizens and gladly pay their taxes. No of course they won't. They will continue to be underground and make their money and leave the legal firms to pay their taxes and charge more than the underground market. There is always an underground market for everything.

The extra taxes will of course be directed by our wonderful governments straight to the NHS so they can deal with the huge increase in both medical and psychological patients from drug use. But yes of course the great British public can be trusted to be responsible when they are given free rein to smoke, inhale and inject themselves legally. After all they could be trusted to wear masks and not go to the beach when asked.

Lower crime?. Yes of course those who are criminally minded and users at the bottom of the chain will all of a sudden become law abiding citizens and have the disposable income so they don't need to burgle, rob, steal to buy their now legal (including tax) drugs . But of course they won't need to go legally buying because Mr law abiding drug dealer hasn't gone law abiding after all and is still punting it out underground like he always has to make the max profit.

Not saying it's working don't have answers but sure isn't what you say in my humble.

As I say, there are many common drugs that are less harmful than alcohol, David Nutt has done a lot of work on this, this includes drugs like cannabis and ecstasy. People should therefore be as free to do these drugs as to drink alcohol. A lot of the issues with street drugs is that they contain other ingredients that can interact in bad ways, as well as in some circumstances highly cariogenic substances added to cut the product up in order for allow drugs to be sold in higher quantities. Safe manufacturing will remove this component.

Other laws in society will offset against people being off their faces all the time, just like they exist so that people aren't driving, working etc drunk all the time.

I don't think the drug trade would be eliminated but it would be severally reduced and the market share drug dealers command cut significantly. I can't think of other criminal activities that are perfect substitutes in which dealers, organised gangs etc will branch out into at the same levels of activity.

As you say, what we have done so far has not worked so that suggests doing something different.

 

[Pangloss]

A few years ago in Dublin loads of head shops opened where you could get legal highs.

They were then the subject of firebombing and arson from disgruntled drug gangs who were losing out, and when the Minister for Justice's house was petrol bombed, the government decided legal highs could not be sold in these shops anymore.

So the cartel won basically, and until they're taken out, I don't know how you legalize drugs.

They will never be taken out under current conditions.

 

[Platypus]

Incredibly naive I'm afraid .

So the drug dealers at all levels will suddenly become law abiding citizens and gladly pay their taxes. No of course they won't. They will continue to be underground and make their money and leave the legal firms to pay their taxes and charge more than the underground market. There is always an underground market for everything.

The extra taxes will of course be directed by our wonderful governments straight to the NHS so they can deal with the huge increase in both medical and psychological patients from drug use. But yes of course the great British public can be trusted to be responsible when they are given free rein to smoke, inhale and inject themselves legally. After all they could be trusted to wear masks and not go to the beach when asked.

Lower crime?. Yes of course those who are criminally minded and users at the bottom of the chain will all of a sudden become law abiding citizens and have the disposable income so they don't need to burgle, rob, steal to buy their now legal (including tax) drugs . But of course they won't need to go legally buying because Mr law abiding drug dealer hasn't gone law abiding after all and is still punting it out underground like he always has to make the max profit.

Not saying it's working don't have answers but sure isn't what you say in my humble.

Legalisation means drug dealers are replaced with drug dispensaries and smuggling replaced with importing drugs legally with the correct licences and permits etc. This is actually much much cheaper than the illegal trade, where the sale of every gram not only has to pay for huge profits for the dealers, but their muscle and all of the grams that end up in police custody or at the bottom of the sea. Nearly all drug dealers would be put out of business.

Your complaint about taxes is exactly that - a complaint about taxes in general, and true (or not, depending on your view) regardless of whether drugs are illegal or not.

Instead of wasting money pursuing low-level drug users and putting them in jail where they learn to be proper criminals, some of the taxes raised can go to treating addiction as a health issue instead of a criminal one. Everything you've mentioned there is a result of the current illegal state of drugs. An otherwise law-abiding citizen currently has to cross the criminal threshold to go and buy some weed or whatever and come into contact with the criminal world that they would otherwise never go near. Otherwise, you've just made a convincing argument to ban alcohol.

 

[Stephen Jay Hawkings]

They will never be taken out under current conditions.

Of course, something has to change and I'm all for the legalization of most drugs, it was just a bit shocking here last time where the government folded within hours after the gangs threw a hissy fit.

There are wealthy and powerful indivduals who are not going to go quietly, I guess there might have to be a period of unrest for it to work. The drug dispensaries would have to be guarded 24/7 like Fort Knox.